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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6981283" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I don't like twists that invalidate the players' choices - eg, for instance, the PCs (in good faith) go along with the GM's adventure hook, only to have it turn out that their patron was really the villain (a pretty common motif). I feel that's basically just the GM exploiting the players (who are under at least a modest duty to accept the adventure that is offered).</p><p></p><p>I don't know if I can articulate my personal borderline for this - but in my 4e campaign, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?309950-Actual-play-my-first-quot-social-only-quot-session" target="_blank">the PCs befriended a baron whose niece had gone missing</a>. The PCs were worried for her, because her fiance was not only the baron's trusted advisor, but also secretly a Vecna cultists leading goblin and hobgoblin hordes in a war against the town and surrounding villages/homesteads.</p><p></p><p>The players decided to have their PCs go and rescue her. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?313724-Actual-play-the-PCs-successfully-negotiated-with-Kas" target="_blank">They got a shock when they discovered that she, like her fiance, was also a necromancer!</a> Though they kept their promise to the baron and brought her home. (And then, in the next session, killed her as she tried to escape and killed innocent NPCs in her attempt.)</p><p></p><p>Overall, I prefer twists that arise from the play of the game, rather than being pre-planned by the GM. In <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?312367-Actual-play-another-combat-free-session-with-intra-party-dyanmics" target="_blank">this session</a>, differences between the PCs in combination with some clever play by me on behalf of my NPC meant that the PCs ended up being obliged to spare the life of a prisoner whom they all would rather have seen executed: in order to extract information the "interrogation team" made a promise that the party paladin would speak to the baron on the prisoner's behalf; they had no intention of keeping the promise, but (despite the interrogation team having taken steps to ensure that the paladin was busy elsewhere) the paladin entered into the interrogation before it was over, and was held by the prisoner to the promise made in his name.</p><p></p><p>In this <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque" target="_blank">more recent session</a>, all the signs were suggesting that the Dusk War is immanent. But the players were determined to have their PCs prove that the signs had been misread - and through a series of clever social plays plus effective combat against the tarrasque, they managed to pull it off!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6981283, member: 42582"] I don't like twists that invalidate the players' choices - eg, for instance, the PCs (in good faith) go along with the GM's adventure hook, only to have it turn out that their patron was really the villain (a pretty common motif). I feel that's basically just the GM exploiting the players (who are under at least a modest duty to accept the adventure that is offered). I don't know if I can articulate my personal borderline for this - but in my 4e campaign, [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?309950-Actual-play-my-first-quot-social-only-quot-session]the PCs befriended a baron whose niece had gone missing[/url]. The PCs were worried for her, because her fiance was not only the baron's trusted advisor, but also secretly a Vecna cultists leading goblin and hobgoblin hordes in a war against the town and surrounding villages/homesteads. The players decided to have their PCs go and rescue her. [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?313724-Actual-play-the-PCs-successfully-negotiated-with-Kas]They got a shock when they discovered that she, like her fiance, was also a necromancer![/url] Though they kept their promise to the baron and brought her home. (And then, in the next session, killed her as she tried to escape and killed innocent NPCs in her attempt.) Overall, I prefer twists that arise from the play of the game, rather than being pre-planned by the GM. In [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?312367-Actual-play-another-combat-free-session-with-intra-party-dyanmics]this session[/url], differences between the PCs in combination with some clever play by me on behalf of my NPC meant that the PCs ended up being obliged to spare the life of a prisoner whom they all would rather have seen executed: in order to extract information the "interrogation team" made a promise that the party paladin would speak to the baron on the prisoner's behalf; they had no intention of keeping the promise, but (despite the interrogation team having taken steps to ensure that the paladin was busy elsewhere) the paladin entered into the interrogation before it was over, and was held by the prisoner to the promise made in his name. In this [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque]more recent session[/url], all the signs were suggesting that the Dusk War is immanent. But the players were determined to have their PCs prove that the signs had been misread - and through a series of clever social plays plus effective combat against the tarrasque, they managed to pull it off! [/QUOTE]
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