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<blockquote data-quote="kenmarable" data-source="post: 3895036" data-attributes="member: 40359">Well, I can see two different types of &quot;simplification&quot; for an easy to pick up class.One is, as you say, limited choices during creation. Yeah, that's not a ton of fun.However, the other is limited choices during play. I can see that as being a useful &quot;pick and play&quot; character. The 3.x fighter is a clear example of plenty of choices in creation, but in play, you pretty much swing and hit. Now, an experienced player can incorporate all kinds of fun stuff with bull rushes, cleaving, etc., but for someone just picking up and playing, a fighter is pretty basic but still powerful enough to have an impact on the game.The 4e fighter looks to be far more Bo9S like with choosing maneuvers. Personally, I greatly prefer that. However, some people I've played with (not even all of them new players just joining up) would really dislike that. They don't want to choose &quot;fighter spells&quot;, they want to swing and hit and deal out a lot of damage in combat. (And, surprisingly, they are not all hack-n-slash &quot;roll-player&quot; gamers, some really get into their characters' personalities. It's just in combat, they want to roll a couple dice and deal out a lot of damage, no fancy planning or choosing maneuvers and such. People who prefer checkers to chess.) I'm the complete opposite and thought the fighter looked boring until Bo9S came out.I can see the good design interest in giving each class more options during combat, but some players I have gamed with don't want those extra options in combat. I hope there is a class or classes that have choices of talents or whatever that allow those players to make the characters they want - simple damage dealers.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="kenmarable, post: 3895036, member: 40359"] Well, I can see two different types of "simplification" for an easy to pick up class. One is, as you say, limited choices during creation. Yeah, that's not a ton of fun. However, the other is limited choices during play. I can see that as being a useful "pick and play" character. The 3.x fighter is a clear example of plenty of choices in creation, but in play, you pretty much swing and hit. Now, an experienced player can incorporate all kinds of fun stuff with bull rushes, cleaving, etc., but for someone just picking up and playing, a fighter is pretty basic but still powerful enough to have an impact on the game. The 4e fighter looks to be far more Bo9S like with choosing maneuvers. Personally, I greatly prefer that. However, some people I've played with (not even all of them new players just joining up) would really dislike that. They don't want to choose "fighter spells", they want to swing and hit and deal out a lot of damage in combat. (And, surprisingly, they are not all hack-n-slash "roll-player" gamers, some really get into their characters' personalities. It's just in combat, they want to roll a couple dice and deal out a lot of damage, no fancy planning or choosing maneuvers and such. People who prefer checkers to chess.) I'm the complete opposite and thought the fighter looked boring until Bo9S came out. I can see the good design interest in giving each class more options during combat, but some players I have gamed with don't want those extra options in combat. I hope there is a class or classes that have choices of talents or whatever that allow those players to make the characters they want - simple damage dealers. [/QUOTE]

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