Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6266000" data-attributes="member: 4937">If everyone is a power gamer, it's a bit easier in some sense than if only one is.   But you can handle it either way.The first thing to realize is that when they wax the floor with your monsters, you are giving them what they want.  They want lots of shining moments of awesome where they easily defeat foes.  That's why they are power gamers.   They want to win and win with style.   When you up the difficulty on them, you're just encouraging them to double down on their existing style.So, in general you don't up difficulty by upping the CR of enemies.  You up difficulty by upping the number of enemies and the tactical advantages they possess due to terrain.   In general, I usually like to have 2 enemies per PC when I'm trying to really challenge them.   Two enemies per PC each having CR of level - 2 works pretty well for having a combat that doesn't  have a high risk PC death or suckage for an individual PC (assuming compotent power gamers).   If your PCs are really breaking the system hard, then evaluate whether:a) Treating them as being effectively 1 to 2 levels higher is going to help.b) You're failing as a DM by providing a system that is too easy to break.   For example, allowing all 3.5 era source books would be failing as a DM.   Allowing full customization of all magic items and/or allowing significantly more wealth than expected by the system is also you failing.If the answer is 'a' you can up the challenge a bit further, but there is eventually as you are noticing a limit to that.The other thing to do is make sure you are doing the most with the least amount of resources.   That means making sure you are playing the monsters well, that you are using monsters that are worth their CR (no humanoid NPCs if you can help it!!!), that you are optimizing monsters so that you get the most bang from their CR (DMs have to power game too!), and that you are putting the monsters in the most advantageous situation possible.   This also means you have to fight back at a strategic level as well.   The enemies have to be proactive, they have prepare for the PCs, and pursue the PCs, and harass the PCs.   You have to be absolutely fair doing this, but if you really have true power gamers they are going to love you for it (if you have pure ego gamers, this is a different problem, as you have a dysfunctional group that will need fixing).   So tactically, you have to present combat as problems.  Have them face ranged attackers when closing the range is difficult (moats, slopes, difficult terrain, flying, walls, arrow loops, etc.)   Have them face brawlers in very close quarters.   Surround the PCs with low level snipers that are 100 yards in each direction and then make them hunt them all down.  Have them face creatures with blindsight after activating a trap that extinguishes or suppresses light sources.   Fill a room with water and have them face a swimming grapple creature.   Have a fast strong grapple creature (big enough that it can take -20 on the grapple and still win it) snatch individual PCs and run away with them.  Have the PC's fight while climbing, or balancing, or flying while doing it above some hazard.   If the PCs are fond of flying, have them fight in a hurricane (or after activating a control winds trap).  If the PC's are fond of buffing, use greater dispel magic traps or monsters that flee only to attack again 20 minutes later so that short term buffs are wasted.   Dispel Magic can be your friend.  Suddenly depriving the PCs of one key buff can totally change how difficult the fight is.   Have them fight cold immune monsters in freezing cold environments, and heat immune monsters on top of flowing lava streams.  Fluids are your friend.  Weather is your friend.   Complex 3D terrain is your friend.   Make the party use resources until they are low on spells, then attack them while they are trying to rest.Throw puzzles at the PCs.  Throw combinations at the PCs - fight monsters in a trapped environment with hurricane force winds.  Force them to deal with situations that they are poorly optimized for.   Change the victory conditions for the PCs.   Put innocents or fragile objects in the environment that need saving to limit area of effect attacks, or to force the PCs to waste actions on goals other than killing foes.</blockquote>

Verification