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<blockquote data-quote="two" data-source="post: 2127028" data-attributes="member: 9002">I don't buy itI'm dissin' Monks, and it's not because I require them to have 3 18's.Your 25 point Point-Buy monk has AC 14 at first level.&nbsp; And 8 hit points.&nbsp; At 2nd level, he's got an AC of... 14.&nbsp; And 12 hit points.&nbsp; At 3rd level, he's got an AC of 14.&nbsp; And 16 hit points.&nbsp; I'm sure you see where this is going.&nbsp; At 10th level, for example, assuming two &quot;+4s&quot; to Dex and Wisdom, the Monk has an AC of 20.&nbsp; It's a touch AC of 20 -- granted.&nbsp; But still, 20.&nbsp; Spend cash on other bonuses to AC if you like (deflection, nat. armor).&nbsp; You still lag far behind even a rogue with mirthral shirt.&nbsp; And the monk has terrible hit points because of low constitution.&nbsp; And fists that do 1d10+3 (or 4) damage at 10th level.&nbsp; As you said -- perfectly playable.&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; But I can also play a Str=5, Con=5 fighter.&nbsp; The question is:&nbsp; is it fun, and is it what the player expects from a monk?&nbsp; Your point buy isn't an effective melee combatant at all at 10th level, period.The 32 point buy is getting better, granted.&nbsp; By level 4, with a boost to Dex from level ups, the monk's AC is 16.&nbsp; Well, I take it back.&nbsp; That's really not that much better.&nbsp; And the 32 point monk STILL has a con=10.&nbsp; Simply put:&nbsp; neither of these point buy builds is gonna compete at all, from level 1 to level 20, as melee combatants.&nbsp; Their mediocre AC (at best), low-to-middling damage output, and terrible hit points insure this.&nbsp; Great saves, good movements, good touch ac.&nbsp; All very fine. But these builds are not viable melee builds, barring some insane min-max&nbsp; tweaking (grappler master, etc. other specialized build) via magic and feats.As many people have pointed out, however, Monk work OK as team-helpers.&nbsp; Helping the rogue flank.&nbsp; Helping the fighter hit harder via. power attack (aid other).&nbsp; Helping to kill the enemy wizard.&nbsp; Scouting, etc.&nbsp; Monks can be fine team-helpers.&nbsp; They also are very hard to hurt via magic. The trouble is, for a lot of people who play monks, their first impulse isn't &quot;how can I tumble into position to interfere with the wizard and / or facilitate my rogue friend doing 25 points of damage in one strike?&quot;&nbsp; It's more like &quot;I'm gonna tumble through X jump off the wall Y and start spanking the Orge's hiney&quot;.&nbsp; After which GM:&nbsp; &quot;Ok make your tumble check&quot; Player &quot;I succeed&quot; GM &quot;Ok do your attack against the ogre&quot; Player &quot;I hit!&nbsp; I do 6 points of damage!&quot; GM &quot;Ok. Next round the Ogre full attacks the monk -- hitting 3 times -- doing 51 points of damage&quot; Player: &quot;oops&quot;I'm not dissing Monks as effective party members -- if they know their role and niche and work that angle.&nbsp; I'm dissing them as effective ranged or melee combatants -- as always, barring specialized high-strength low-AC builds.I honestly wish Monks could do more of that crazy off-the-wall (literally) flying leaps upside down strikes etc. etc.&nbsp; There are some feats that help, but feats only go so far.I think if I revised the Monk class I would double the &quot;base&quot; monk bonus to AC, starting a level 1, and remove the &quot;wisdom to AC&quot; bonus.&nbsp; It just puts too much pressure on stats,&nbsp; and removing Wisdom as a big monk stat might help in a lot of ways.Something like:Level 1 - 1Level 2 - 1Level 3 - 2Level 4 - 2i.e. half your Monk level + 1 divided by two (rounding down).&nbsp; So a Monk20 has an AC bonus of 10.&nbsp; I like that.&nbsp; Throw in a good Dex and magic, and the Monk20 will have a very effective AC.&nbsp; This Monk10 would have an AC bonus of 5 (equivalent of a Wisdom=20) but without requiring the Wisdom 20.&nbsp; So those points could be put into another stat, or racheted down some.Using this system, Dex=16 or Dex=14 is pretty viable even at level 1, giving the Monk1 an AC of 13 or 14 (same as the 25 point buy monk).&nbsp; Yeah, that might work.&nbsp; Sorry, rambling.&nbsp; I'll throw it out to my players as an option.&nbsp; (let's see, using my monk AC system, a 32 point buy can get you:STR 16, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8.&nbsp; That's a little better as melee goes)sorry...rambling</blockquote>

[QUOTE="two, post: 2127028, member: 9002"] [b]I don't buy it[/b] I'm dissin' Monks, and it's not because I require them to have 3 18's. Your 25 point Point-Buy monk has AC 14 at first level. And 8 hit points. At 2nd level, he's got an AC of... 14. And 12 hit points. At 3rd level, he's got an AC of 14. And 16 hit points. I'm sure you see where this is going. At 10th level, for example, assuming two "+4s" to Dex and Wisdom, the Monk has an AC of 20. It's a touch AC of 20 -- granted. But still, 20. Spend cash on other bonuses to AC if you like (deflection, nat. armor). You still lag far behind even a rogue with mirthral shirt. And the monk has terrible hit points because of low constitution. And fists that do 1d10+3 (or 4) damage at 10th level. As you said -- perfectly playable. Yes. But I can also play a Str=5, Con=5 fighter. The question is: is it fun, and is it what the player expects from a monk? Your point buy isn't an effective melee combatant at all at 10th level, period. The 32 point buy is getting better, granted. By level 4, with a boost to Dex from level ups, the monk's AC is 16. Well, I take it back. That's really not that much better. And the 32 point monk STILL has a con=10. Simply put: neither of these point buy builds is gonna compete at all, from level 1 to level 20, as melee combatants. Their mediocre AC (at best), low-to-middling damage output, and terrible hit points insure this. Great saves, good movements, good touch ac. All very fine. But these builds are not viable melee builds, barring some insane min-max tweaking (grappler master, etc. other specialized build) via magic and feats. As many people have pointed out, however, Monk work OK as team-helpers. Helping the rogue flank. Helping the fighter hit harder via. power attack (aid other). Helping to kill the enemy wizard. Scouting, etc. Monks can be fine team-helpers. They also are very hard to hurt via magic. The trouble is, for a lot of people who play monks, their first impulse isn't "how can I tumble into position to interfere with the wizard and / or facilitate my rogue friend doing 25 points of damage in one strike?" It's more like "I'm gonna tumble through X jump off the wall Y and start spanking the Orge's hiney". After which GM: "Ok make your tumble check" Player "I succeed" GM "Ok do your attack against the ogre" Player "I hit! I do 6 points of damage!" GM "Ok. Next round the Ogre full attacks the monk -- hitting 3 times -- doing 51 points of damage" Player: "oops" I'm not dissing Monks as effective party members -- if they know their role and niche and work that angle. I'm dissing them as effective ranged or melee combatants -- as always, barring specialized high-strength low-AC builds. I honestly wish Monks could do more of that crazy off-the-wall (literally) flying leaps upside down strikes etc. etc. There are some feats that help, but feats only go so far. I think if I revised the Monk class I would double the "base" monk bonus to AC, starting a level 1, and remove the "wisdom to AC" bonus. It just puts too much pressure on stats, and removing Wisdom as a big monk stat might help in a lot of ways. Something like: Level 1 - 1 Level 2 - 1 Level 3 - 2 Level 4 - 2 i.e. half your Monk level + 1 divided by two (rounding down). So a Monk20 has an AC bonus of 10. I like that. Throw in a good Dex and magic, and the Monk20 will have a very effective AC. This Monk10 would have an AC bonus of 5 (equivalent of a Wisdom=20) but without requiring the Wisdom 20. So those points could be put into another stat, or racheted down some. Using this system, Dex=16 or Dex=14 is pretty viable even at level 1, giving the Monk1 an AC of 13 or 14 (same as the 25 point buy monk). Yeah, that might work. Sorry, rambling. I'll throw it out to my players as an option. (let's see, using my monk AC system, a 32 point buy can get you: STR 16, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8. That's a little better as melee goes) sorry...rambling [/QUOTE]

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