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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 2128833" data-attributes="member: 3146">I agree that the monk builds listed seriously undervalued constitution (no con bonus on either of them--that's a way to get killed). However, I disagree that monks are unable to compete because of low AC and hit points.The key about a monk's AC is that it is very buffable. A friendly mage with a mage armor spell will boost the monk's AC to 18. At first level, that's quite good. Even at third and fourth level, it's decent.1st level pearl of power and lesser rod of extend spell: 4000gp.AC 24.Begging a Magic Circle vs. Evil off the cleric. (And another charge from the wand).AC 26 vs. evil.At that point the AC is quite respectable. A 10th level damage focussed fighter (+2 or +3 fullplate, +1 dex, magic circle vs. evil) will be in the same ballpark. A 10th level rogue in his mithral chain shirt will be in the same area too (dex +5, Armor +6 (+2 from magic vestment), Deflection +2 (circle vs. evil), +2 (+1 buckler)=AC 23, 25 vs. evil).A monk's belt will boost it by another point. Haste (either the spell or boots of speed) boosts it by another point. A 5000gp rose prism ioun stone is another point of AC. The monk is actually quite well off in the AC department--better than your typical barbarian and on a par with a non-sword and board fighter. Not by my count in the previous section.Only this monk. There's no rule that monks have to have poor con. And in general, it's a bad idea.2d6+3 if the character has a monk's belt. 2d6+4 if the character spent his 4th and 8th level bumps on strength. 2d6+6 with Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang, and 1d6+16 if the monk gets the cleric/druid to cast spikes on a quarterstaff and then wields it two-handed for a flurry of blows. (But Spikes is a broken spell and any class can make use of it (though not as well as a monk) so it probably doesn't belong in this comparison).When combined with a flurry of blows, the monk's damage is actually pretty respectable.Three attacks for 2d6+6  works out to an average of 39 points of damage if they all hit. A 22 strength fighter (assuming a +4 belt of strength, starting strength 16, and 2 stat bumps in strength) with a +1 flaming greatsword greater magic weaponed up to +2 and weapon specialization will do 2d6+11+1d6 twice--for 43 points of damage on two hits. The fighter has a slight edge on the monk and also has an attack bonus advantage, but one doesn't need to dish out damage as well as a fighter with a two-handed weapon in order to be a viable melee combatant.As an aside, it's worth pointing out that the monk combines very well with support classes. Having more attacks than usual means that inspire courage, prayer, recitation, fires of purity, etc are more effective on a monk.The monk is a lot better than a strength 5, con 5 fighter. With the example point buy's con, he may be similar to a 10 con fighter...but, news flash, he's a 10 con monk as well. Build a higher con monk and he'll do better.You keep harping on the 10 con but that says nothing about the monk as a class--only about a poor choice in this particular build.First things first. Tweaking monk builds for things like grappling, stunning fist, and tripping (or all of the above) is not a specialized build. It's what a monk uses to make up for the fact that he doesn't dish out quite as much damage as the fighter. Ignoring things like Stunning Fist, Rapid Stunning, Pain Touch, Improved Grapple, etc in analyzing the monk class is like ignoring feats analyzing the fighter class (OK, so I didn't figure Power Attack into my damage output comparison--mea culpa. However, monks can have Power Attack too so it cuts both ways).  Second, the monk's AC can be (as I showed) mediocre to good rather than mediocre at best and his damage output can be middling to high rather than low-middling.Anyone who makes this the selling point of the monk class is selling a bill of goods. A commoner can do half the things you mention there: provide a flank, aid other, etc. If that's all a monk can do, monks suck. They're not hard to hurt with magic but I wouldn't want to play a commoner even if they were hard to hurt with magic. Fortunately, as I discussed previously, monks are more than moving flank bonusses.I've seen that happen too. However, that's a poorly built monk if he does six points of damage and gets hit on all of the ogre's iterative attacks. Monks don't have to be that way; they just often are that way. With a little modification, it's not bad for a standard monk class either. Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8 is a pretty good monk. (Stat bumps to wisdom for a stunning focussed monk; to str for a grappling and melee damage focussed monk (in which case you can get a 12 int instead of the 15 wis).However, back to the main topic--what can you do with your monk?1. Get help from party members. Get yourself a pearl of power and a lesser rod of extend spell and get mage armor (or greater mage armor) from the group's mage.2. Get a cleric/druid to cast spikes on a quarterstaff.3. Flurry for all you're worth.</blockquote>

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