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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Oryan77" data-source="post: 6683762" data-attributes="member: 18701">If the roll was made in secret, why would we force a player's actions? The whole reason for rolling in secret is so we don't have to force actions.As I said previously, when rolled in secret, he is moving away not because he knows a feint is coming, but for whatever other reasons he chose to do so. Basically, he just got lucky and avoided a feint attempt. I have no problem with that. Unfortunately, the player isn't doing that. He isn't withdrawing for any other reason than to avoid the penalty to AC that he shouldn't know he has until it is too late.Any opposed rolls where the result should not be known to the player doing the check is rolled in secret at our table. It solves this very thing that the OP is dealing with.I am also not interpreting anything. It's right there in the description of the rules. I quoted the Sense Motive rule for you in my previous post. You are ignoring the fact that he didn't sense the PCs motive. Then, you're saying that even though you failed to do so, you still sensed that "something is up". There's really nothing to debate other than determining what feinting actually does flavor-wise since the physical action is not spelled out in the Feinting rule. Even then, that's just fluff for narration sake.The name of the skill is "Sense Motive". If you fail, then you fail to to sense any motive. You don't get to sense some kind of motive like you are suggesting.I completely agree. I just didn't feel that it was appropriate to criticize someone for using a valid tactic. Even using the Improved Feint feat is a waste of an action most of the time. But that's an opinion on tactics and doesn't seem reasonable to derail the thread into that discussion.Show me how I would not be adhering to the rules and I'll agree. Thing is, I've pointed to the exact ruling to show how you guys are not adhering to the rules."You can also use this skill to determine when “something is up” (that is, something odd is going on)"; a direct quote from the SRD Sense Motive skill. It sounds extremely cut-and-dry to me. If you disagree and still think that the metagamer should sense that something odd is going on (specifically a feint, at that) when he failed to sense something, then there's simply nothing else I can add to this discussion. Regardless of how you decide to do it and what we say, if it makes sense to you and your group, then that's all that matters.</blockquote>

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