Advice on Helpless but not Unconscious

[Underhill]

Helpless merely states that, as the target:
• You grant combat advantage.
• You can be the target of a coup de grace.
Note: Usually you’re helpless because you’re unconscious.

Unconscious has all the really limiting traits, like no actions and -5 penalty to defenses, etc. it even lists Helpless as a trait.

There are spells that cause a "helpless but not unconscious" state, and my players have a not-unreasonable issue with the ability of such a helpless enemy to keep attacking them or fly away and use range attacks until saving, etc. Always critting on a hit is nice, but it just doesn't seem right.

Is there any errata or forum consensus on the topic?

If it IS supposed to be strictly as written, what is a reasonable explanation for this quite strangely active helpless enemy.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Helpless merely states that, as the target:
• You grant combat advantage.
• You can be the target of a coup de grace.
Note: Usually you’re helpless because you’re unconscious.

Unconscious has all the really limiting traits, like no actions and -5 penalty to defenses, etc. it even lists Helpless as a trait.

There are spells that cause a "helpless but not unconscious" state, and my players have a not-unreasonable issue with the ability of such a helpless enemy to keep attacking them or fly away and use range attacks until saving, etc. Always critting on a hit is nice, but it just doesn't seem right.

Is there any errata or forum consensus on the topic?

If it IS supposed to be strictly as written, what is a reasonable explanation for this quite strangely active helpless enemy.

What spell(s) are you referring to that cause a helpless (but not unconcious) state? I can't think of any off hand. But depending in the fluff wording of the spell, that could help your imagery of why the target is helpless.

 

[Saeviomagy]

What spell(s) are you referring to that cause a helpless (but not unconcious) state? I can't think of any off hand. But depending in the fluff wording of the spell, that could help your imagery of why the target is helpless.

Theres some sort of magical mask of death that does it (and which it can easily be imagined to be internally consistent for).

 

[RigaMortus2]

I may be misremembering, but don't you also have the Helpess condition when you are Restrained as well?

Perhaps the power in question has a "stunning" type of effect, or a binding effect?

 

[RangerWickett]

If you're just 'helpless' and not any other conditions, I figure you're walking around pointing at your throat, shouting, "Stab here!"

 

[webrunner]

Maybe it should be called 'defenseless' instead of 'helpless' since that's basically what it is.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Maybe it should be called 'defenseless' instead of 'helpless' since that's basically what it is.

Yeah, exactly, I think. You're running around fighting normally, but your arms are down, your sword is down until you swing, shield is down. You still have your AC (sans combat advantage), but your enemies can easily exploit your weaknesses because you aren't guarding yourself at all.

EDIT: Surely there is a boxing analogy here to be made but I know little of boxing

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I don't think it was really ever intended to be used on its own. It is a condition that was abstracted out of unconscious because there could well be 'conscious but helpless' situations. The problem is then someone went and used it with Mask of Death (IIRC). I guess one theory there would be with that huge a penalty on you, wouldn't you run away? lol. I think the spell should have just plain said something about the target has to move away from the caster at max speed or something just to put some sense to it.

The best solution really is for the DM to RP his monsters. The monster is frightened almost to death, it run. lol.

 

[Kingreaper]

Magically induced helpless should be invisaged not as an effect on the monster, per se, but as an aid to your attacks.

The Mask of Death is upon him, and any blow you strike will be a grievous one, because death is calling to your blade/spell/whatever, and telling it where to strike.

 

[Underhill]

faces of death is one spell causing helpless

It is a 9th level power I think.