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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5523056" data-attributes="member: 4937">Really?  In my experience that is never the case.Did I say that they could?  I note that you are the one being contridictory here, since later in your reply you say: "for which "ignorance" is no excuse".  Well, is or is not ignorance an excuse?First of all, who is holding the characters to anything?  I haven't yet applied any sort of consequence to these actions, so how have I been 'fundamentally and grossly unfair'?   And the first line consequences would probably be, "A good spirit or divine servitor tries to explain to you what you have done."Yes.  And this is especially true since I largely allowed the characters to make up the gods and religious organizations that they served when they created their background.No, they don't.  Who or what if anything is the final arbiter of morality in the universe is a campaign level secret.  Moreover, it is something that really intelligent people within the game world disagree over.  Some would argue that the good aligned gods are the final arbiters of morality.  Others would argue that they themselves are only embodiments of some higher principle intrinsic to existance.  Others would argue that its defined within the minds of all sentient individual regardless of stature and only exists there.  This is something people in the game world don't know, so there is no way that the PC's could know for certain.   I'm not even sure I know what the final arbiter of morality is in the campaign world, though I have some guesses.I agree.I agree.  Indeed.  It's not generally known by the mortal public what alignment the gods are, and there is sometimes significant debate over that even within a particular gods priesthood.  One of my players plays an assassin for the goddess of beauty.  He belongs to a secret organization whose very existance would horrify most of the church's clergy and which would like bring about a violent schism that could only be put down by the deity herself.  I'm not at all clear on which side she would come down in that case, but I am clear that both sides have a reasonable belief that they are acting in a good fashion as best as they understand it.These things aren't rules.  Saying that you get to know the alignments of the gods, the origin of the universe, and the fundamental nature of sentient species in advance is like saying you have a right to know the layout of dungeons and the particular powers of the Hand of Vecna.   These are secrets which may or may not be revealed over the course of the campaign.I don't want to argue with you about any additional things, but it seems clear to me that taking the law into your own hands and appointing yourself jury and executioner is inherently chaotic whatever else it is.  Feel free to disagree.They recognized the cult leader as a person as well.  They'd had dinner with her and shared wine with her.  They'd had conversations with her before they knew what or who she was.  No, I'm more concerned here with whether never even considering that the goblins might be people is more depraved than admitting that they are but in the interest of the greater good thinking that they should die.This is a deliberate and knowing treacherous act.  I'm not sure that the treachery makes the murder any worse than the other ones, and if anything the other two were in colder blood, but I do take note of the fact that you seem to consider treachery worse than murder.  (See below.)Are you sure?   Well, we've established what your standards are.</blockquote>

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