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<blockquote data-quote="Spatula" data-source="post: 4078265" data-attributes="member: 2198">Yeah, I can't imagine how you ever could deal with such a situation in 3e.&nbsp; Setting an adhoc DC for a Strength check or ruling it as a melee touch attack (Str+BAB vs Ref, which is what was done above) would have been totally inconceivable.&nbsp; Yeppers...Alphabetical, bullet-pointed, combat chapters is all kinds of usefulness, at least.&nbsp; I just wish 4e designers &amp; testers would stop telling me how you can do all these things in 4e that you couldn't in 3e, except that you could do them just fine in 3e...&nbsp; Tell me the stuff that is an actual improvement over 3e, like the combat chapter.&nbsp; Hell, tell me about grappling, since Massawyrm mentioned it.&nbsp; That's an easy sell.Oh and:This is only true if player defenses do not scale as they level.&nbsp; Which may be the case in the absense of magic items (or may not, monsters seem to get 1/2 their level as a defense bonus, do PCs get the same?), but I would not expect it to be the norm.&nbsp; Otherwise the damage output is not the same; the low level monsters will not be able to hit the higher level PCs as often, and thus deal less damage.&nbsp; Damage output depends as much on the attack bonus as it does actual damage dealt.CR is XP...Magic item shops have always existed in the game.&nbsp; 1e had gp values for magic items, and you know what?&nbsp; There were magic item shops in our games.&nbsp; That was back in the early 80's, and I don't think we were alone.&nbsp; If there are gp values for magic items, people will use them.And in any case, the players are going to find items that they don't want, but that others logically will.&nbsp; There is going to be a market for such things.&nbsp;&nbsp; D&amp;D is, and always has been, far too magic-heavy (in its default mode) to pretend that each and every sword +1 is a rare and priceless treasure.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Spatula, post: 4078265, member: 2198"] Yeah, I can't imagine how you ever could deal with such a situation in 3e. Setting an adhoc DC for a Strength check or ruling it as a melee touch attack (Str+BAB vs Ref, which is what was done above) would have been totally inconceivable. Yeppers... Alphabetical, bullet-pointed, combat chapters is all kinds of usefulness, at least. I just wish 4e designers & testers would stop telling me how you can do all these things in 4e that you couldn't in 3e, except that you could do them just fine in 3e... Tell me the stuff that is an actual improvement over 3e, like the combat chapter. Hell, tell me about grappling, since Massawyrm mentioned it. That's an easy sell. Oh and: This is only true if player defenses do not scale as they level. Which may be the case in the absense of magic items (or may not, monsters seem to get 1/2 their level as a defense bonus, do PCs get the same?), but I would not expect it to be the norm. Otherwise the damage output is not the same; the low level monsters will not be able to hit the higher level PCs as often, and thus deal less damage. Damage output depends as much on the attack bonus as it does actual damage dealt. CR is XP... Magic item shops have always existed in the game. 1e had gp values for magic items, and you know what? There were magic item shops in our games. That was back in the early 80's, and I don't think we were alone. If there are gp values for magic items, people will use them. And in any case, the players are going to find items that they don't want, but that others logically will. There is going to be a market for such things. D&D is, and always has been, far too magic-heavy (in its default mode) to pretend that each and every sword +1 is a rare and priceless treasure. [/QUOTE]

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