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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 6820358" data-attributes="member: 6795602">1a.&nbsp; If the players were used to a system where initiative is called for no apparent reason they would understand it means their PC's are about to be surprised.&nbsp; The only confusion is derived from initially doing it differently than you have always done it.1b.&nbsp; I have no idea how calling for initiative in this way breaks immersion when done in this order any more than calling for initiative breaks immersion in general.&nbsp; Maybe you can elaborate?1c.&nbsp; I have no idea how calling for initiative in this way spoils events for the players themselves any more than calling for initiative in your normal way.&nbsp; Maybe you can elaborate?2.&nbsp; Players will know the reason they are surprised.&nbsp; Players are smart they can deduce what's happening.&nbsp; The moment you call for initiative under my rules and there is nothing apparent present the players will go &quot;aww crap!&quot; because they know they are surprised then and there.2b.&nbsp; Surprise is a mechanical effect that causes the loss of your first turn.&nbsp; If what causes initiative to be rolled is a creatures intention to soon attack a PC then the players will understand that and there will be no confusion, no questioning what's happening, no wondering why they cannot act yet.2c.&nbsp; I do understand the desire to tie a totally physical in game activity to surprise.&nbsp; Something that is tangible that the players can see is what prevents them from having their PC's take actions.&nbsp; In my scenario surprise is simply a mechanic being used that doesn't tie into the story.&nbsp; In yours surprise is being used as a defacto, something happened you weren't expecting and so you react a little slower (this is what causes the loss of the first turns actions).I don't think I need to go any further.&nbsp; I understand your problem with it now!&nbsp; Thank you.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 6820358, member: 6795602"] 1a. If the players were used to a system where initiative is called for no apparent reason they would understand it means their PC's are about to be surprised. The only confusion is derived from initially doing it differently than you have always done it. 1b. I have no idea how calling for initiative in this way breaks immersion when done in this order any more than calling for initiative breaks immersion in general. Maybe you can elaborate? 1c. I have no idea how calling for initiative in this way spoils events for the players themselves any more than calling for initiative in your normal way. Maybe you can elaborate? 2. Players will know the reason they are surprised. Players are smart they can deduce what's happening. The moment you call for initiative under my rules and there is nothing apparent present the players will go "aww crap!" because they know they are surprised then and there. 2b. Surprise is a mechanical effect that causes the loss of your first turn. If what causes initiative to be rolled is a creatures intention to soon attack a PC then the players will understand that and there will be no confusion, no questioning what's happening, no wondering why they cannot act yet. 2c. I do understand the desire to tie a totally physical in game activity to surprise. Something that is tangible that the players can see is what prevents them from having their PC's take actions. In my scenario surprise is simply a mechanic being used that doesn't tie into the story. In yours surprise is being used as a defacto, something happened you weren't expecting and so you react a little slower (this is what causes the loss of the first turns actions). I don't think I need to go any further. I understand your problem with it now! Thank you. [/QUOTE]

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