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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 6820890" data-attributes="member: 6788736">Initiative is never called for no discernable reason. You narrate what triggered initiative and then roll it.If a hidden archer attacks the party, you dont say 'You notice nothing - roll initiative'. You also dont resolve the attack and then roll initiative. What you do is:'An arrow flies out from the darkness (you hear the creak of a bow). Roll initiative.'Thats your fault as a DM who cant narrate what is happeneing properly. I hope that doesnt sound snarky (im trying not to be). Its your job to provide the information.If an invisible stalker ambushes the party, taking them totally by surprise you say:'You all feel the wind whip up around you disturbing the dust, and sense an evil presence lurking nearby - roll initative - and you're all surprised on turn one'Thats how surprise works. You cant act on turn one if youre surprised.Youre doing the exact same thing - youre just doing to everyone on turn 'zero'What? This makes no sense. Theyve just chosen to attack the PC's. If they didnt want to attack dont attack.The party are surprised and cannot act on turn one in this example.So (as a DM) I would say 'As you walk down the trail, suddenly a hail of goblin arrows fills the sky!' Roll initaitive - youre all surprised on round 1' I would then proceed to resolve the actions of the parties in turn order (with the PCs unable to act on turn one, seeing as they are surprised). Any Monks who rolled high enough Dex [initiative] checks could use deflect arrows, as could any spellcasters pop up a shield spell (assuming they rolled high enough initiative check).What is your problem with this (RAW) approach?So the Goblins get two- three lots of surprise attacks. One during turn 'zero' (before initiative is rolled) then again on turn 1 (vs any surprised PCs) and then possibly again on turn 3 before teh PCs assuming they rolled a higher initaitive?I would promptly walk out of such a game where a creature pretty much always got 2-3 turns on me before I could act.Yep initiative is rolled BEFORE any attacks are resolved. You can narrate the events leading up to them just fine. Arrows in the air, orcs running from the bushes, creak of armor, clash of steel, chanting arcane words, whatever.  This isnt a flaw with the rules - Its a flaw with your ability as DM to narrate the action.You just say 'You see a Goblin spring up and reach to trigger a trap, as a hail of goblin arrows fills the sky - roll initiative, you're all surprised on turn one'And then proceed in initiative order, with the PCs surprised on round one. It does if you narrate it properly. Again - the prolem lies in your ability to narrate, not in the rules.But you're supposed to do the latter - you're just not supposed to resolve the attack itself until the archers first turn, otherwise youre granting the archer an entire additional turn.You dont just say 'roll initiative' and sit there with a blank look on your face when your players ask 'Why - whats going on'? Your job as DM is to narrate the action accordingly. 'The Ogre you were talking to snarls and raises its club, charging the fighter - roll initiative'Then, on the Ogres turn, you resolve the attack. If the Ogre cant do that action anymore (say the Cleric rolled a higher initaitive and charged him first), you narrate it accordingly: 'The Ogre and the Cleric meet with a clash in the centre of the room, weapons locked together in a mighty battle'Its no different to:'From the darkness you hear the creak of a bow, and the twang of an arrow being loosed - roll initiative''You kick in the door and see 5 orcs scrambling for their weapons - roll initaitive'etc</blockquote>

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