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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ranillon" data-source="post: 811450" data-attributes="member: 6699">Lord Pendragon's fundamental argument is that chaotic is a disregard for any form of principle based on the establishment of society.-------------------------------------------------That part I agree with.  What I most certainly do not -- or, at least, would argue is NOT in keeping with those people who have such personalities in real life -- is the notion that Chaotic = no standards of conduct.  Quite the contrary such individuals can and usually do have standards, they just derive from their own individual opinions and self-experience.  On that basis a Chaotic person can be just as structured, organized, and disciplined as any Lawful person, it's just the basis for such will be fundamentally opposed.To suggest that Lawful people are the ones who are organized and disciplined while Chaotic people -- as nice as they may otherwise be -- pretty much lack any such traits is to perpetuate a >modern< social bias, one based on externals.  That is, the "structure" of Lawful individuals -- since it tends to be in keeping with cultural and social assumptions -- tends to be more obvious.  After all, they are demonstrating structure in a way that their collective labels as being "structure".  However, in truth that is not the only possible basis for personal discipline and organization.  Those standards can just as easily be wholly individualistic.  Perhaps not in keeping with cultural "shoulds", but nonetheless just as strong and valid.  To suggest otherwise is to offer up a superficial -- and more importantly broken -- appraisal of human personality.Why is this important?  While it's never a good thing to perpetuate social prejudice more importantly D+D ends up encouraging poor role-playing.  ------------------------------------------------Chaotic does not mean short-term. It means that there is no inherent value placed on tradition, authority or oaths. In the case of CE, that lack of inherent value means that these can be followed- but only if the CE character gains in the long-term.-------------------------------------------------I agree in the case of Chaotic Evil because that is the result of Chaos >AND< evil.  However, what you are suggesting seems to be that Chaos in effect promotes "evil" actions by definition, it's just that the >intent< is different.  Come on, a person without any standards of conduct is pretty much the definition of evil for all practical purposes, although I suppose you could try to make the the argument it's merely selfish and idiosyncratic.  Regardless, the result is a definition of "Chaotic" that clearly makes the alignment inferior to Lawful.  Looking at this subject in more depth as I have given here at least brings logic to the activities of a Chaotic individual, demonstrates they can be just as structured and virtuous as anyone, and restores the balance between the alignments.  Why perpetuate a social bias that ultimately doesn't make sense even buying into its own assumptions?</blockquote>

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