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Alignment in the movie "Man on Fire"
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<blockquote data-quote="Amal Shukup" data-source="post: 2154385" data-attributes="member: 6291"><p>Hi Malic,</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yup. The vermin do make it easy, mind you <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, a Chaotic individual could do the same thing (work along a trail of bad guys), but he'd likely go about it differently. Mind you, I think they'd be just as likely to do something else... </p><p></p><p>Knowing Creasy's nature, I don't think any other response was possible (the hallmark of a lawful personality): He took the job, was upfront with his employer about his limitations (which I think some of the chaos advocates may have overlooked), took his duties seriously, executed them well and faithfully, and clearly saw that his duty required him to exact revenge on those responsible for kidnapping/killing his charge.</p><p></p><p>Yes, he was angry too - but I didn't see that anger interfere with his ability to execute his mission: The amount of violence applied was VERY precise - just enough to do the job, no more. Notice that people didn't end up inadvertantly dead before he found out what he needed to learn from them. Limited collateral damage, long stakeouts, careful attention paid to disguises, ensuring means of ingress/egress, taking pains to avoid killing bystanders. All of this speaks to him maintaining strict control of his emotions throughout - not giving in to the no doubt powerful impulse to just waste the bast@rds RIGHT NOW.</p><p></p><p>Also, while a reasonably straightforward 'Mission' (Kill 'em All), it was NOT an easy trail of bad guys to follow. More importantly, it was a MISSION. Not just a spastic outpouring of rage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think this is why he isn't 'Good'. I think a lot of the 'bad things they've done' that they're 'unlikely to be forgiven for' were ALSO done because he felt it was his duty to do those things in the service of his nation. His 'Lawfulness' (devotion to duty) was more important to him than being 'Good' or not being 'Evil'. </p><p></p><p>The 'he knows he's doing/done bad things, therefore he's chaotic' argument is just a repositioning of the Law = Legal position, except that now the 'Law' he's breaking is a 'higher Law' - perhaps that of his upbringing (Catholic) or culture (Judeo/Christian/Western).</p><p></p><p>He knows that what he does/did/is going to do is WRONG - but he does it because his understanding of his duty and his code requires it of him. Even were that not so, his actions are conducted in a structured, organized and disciplined fashion... </p><p></p><p>I'm not suggesting that he's completely immune from Chaotic influence - we agree that his drinking and general dissolution at the beginning of the film represent unlawful tendencies. But he definitely pulls himself together long enough to execute the Mission he assigns himself.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I suppose. But the execution is somewhat different. Your typical Barbarian (D&D Flavah) does not assign himself a Mission, plan each detail in an exacting fashion, and painstakingly stick to the plan. In the games I play, they seem all about 'Kill now, plan Later'...</p><p></p><p>It is an interesting discussion. I might even go so far as to grudgingly agree with Fusangite that SOMETHING is wrong with the system: If people's understanding of Alignments is SO diverse, then they're useless as a tool to help describe a character's outlook.</p><p></p><p>A'mal</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Amal Shukup, post: 2154385, member: 6291"] Hi Malic, Yup. The vermin do make it easy, mind you :) Sure, a Chaotic individual could do the same thing (work along a trail of bad guys), but he'd likely go about it differently. Mind you, I think they'd be just as likely to do something else... Knowing Creasy's nature, I don't think any other response was possible (the hallmark of a lawful personality): He took the job, was upfront with his employer about his limitations (which I think some of the chaos advocates may have overlooked), took his duties seriously, executed them well and faithfully, and clearly saw that his duty required him to exact revenge on those responsible for kidnapping/killing his charge. Yes, he was angry too - but I didn't see that anger interfere with his ability to execute his mission: The amount of violence applied was VERY precise - just enough to do the job, no more. Notice that people didn't end up inadvertantly dead before he found out what he needed to learn from them. Limited collateral damage, long stakeouts, careful attention paid to disguises, ensuring means of ingress/egress, taking pains to avoid killing bystanders. All of this speaks to him maintaining strict control of his emotions throughout - not giving in to the no doubt powerful impulse to just waste the bast@rds RIGHT NOW. Also, while a reasonably straightforward 'Mission' (Kill 'em All), it was NOT an easy trail of bad guys to follow. More importantly, it was a MISSION. Not just a spastic outpouring of rage. I think this is why he isn't 'Good'. I think a lot of the 'bad things they've done' that they're 'unlikely to be forgiven for' were ALSO done because he felt it was his duty to do those things in the service of his nation. His 'Lawfulness' (devotion to duty) was more important to him than being 'Good' or not being 'Evil'. The 'he knows he's doing/done bad things, therefore he's chaotic' argument is just a repositioning of the Law = Legal position, except that now the 'Law' he's breaking is a 'higher Law' - perhaps that of his upbringing (Catholic) or culture (Judeo/Christian/Western). He knows that what he does/did/is going to do is WRONG - but he does it because his understanding of his duty and his code requires it of him. Even were that not so, his actions are conducted in a structured, organized and disciplined fashion... I'm not suggesting that he's completely immune from Chaotic influence - we agree that his drinking and general dissolution at the beginning of the film represent unlawful tendencies. But he definitely pulls himself together long enough to execute the Mission he assigns himself. I suppose. But the execution is somewhat different. Your typical Barbarian (D&D Flavah) does not assign himself a Mission, plan each detail in an exacting fashion, and painstakingly stick to the plan. In the games I play, they seem all about 'Kill now, plan Later'... It is an interesting discussion. I might even go so far as to grudgingly agree with Fusangite that SOMETHING is wrong with the system: If people's understanding of Alignments is SO diverse, then they're useless as a tool to help describe a character's outlook. A'mal [/QUOTE]
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