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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Amal Shukup" data-source="post: 2172112" data-attributes="member: 6291">Yes it does break down in places, but (IMNSHO) were it less structured or less, well, 'Lawful' it would break down in even more horrible ways...We're veering into dangerous territory here, but...The reason law enforcement agencies are typically forbidden - and SHOULD be forbidden - from using torture 'as a means to an end' is becaus the discretion of even well-meaning (and how do you continue to ensure that?) individuals and institutions are simply NOT to be trusted.There's a scene in another excellent Movie - LA Confidential - where The Police Captain (James Cromwell) asks Dudley a couple of interesting questions - putatively on the subject of using questionable means in the furtherance of 'good' causes:1. "Would you be willing to plant corroborative evidence on a suspect you knew to be guilty, in order to ensure an indictment?" 2. "Would you be willing to beat a confession out of a suspect you knew to be guilty?" 3. "Would you be willing to shoot a hardened criminal in the back, in order to offset the chance that some...lawyer..."To which Dudley (being Lawful Good IMHO) says No, no and no...Watching a movie like Man on Fire - We KNOW the baddies are baddies. We KNOW this, and it feels great to see the protagonist mete out punishment and take extreme steps in the furtherance of an obviously 'good cause'. Coerced confessions (using torture), planting evidence and the like are rather common in our fiction (Dirty Harry? Yeesh!), but it's a LOT less fun in reality.Why?Because approximately 1/2 of all arrests turn out to be the wrong guy. And NONE of them were arrested because the cops thought they were innocent... This isn't (usually) cops and prosecuters acting in bad faith. This isn't 'they got off on a technicality', either. We're talking honest 'mistakes' where the evidence seems to point one way and they arrest some poor, unlucky idiot who was in the wrong place at the wrong time lookin' all guilty an all. In a way, it's just the system doing it's thing...Mostly, the system works as it should and these people get released - often with their reputations/lives irreparably damaged (because they wouldn't have gotten arrested if they weren't guilty, right?), but at least alive and in reasonably good health. In some horrible cases, they get convicted and sentenced despite the FACT (proven much, much later) that they WERE NOT the guilty party.This sucks enough as it is, but imagine if our system(s) ALLOWED law enforcement (or - yikes!  - Vigilantes!) to use torture on 'suspects' - because, of course, we all KNOW they're guilty...What a bloody nightmare that would be. Why bother being a law abiding citizen if being innocent doesn't protect you from having your bits cut off until you confess? Think about what that does to society - given that 1/2 the time the guy getting cut up doesn't even HAVE the answers the cops are looking for (although trying like heck to make 'em up now).So. It looks/feels good when Clint and Denzel stuff some creep in the hurt locker, and it feels pretty crappy watching some scumbag 'get away' with something (but do we really KNOW what we think we know?), BUT: Imagine if half the people Dirty Harry smacked around,  or Creasy de-fingered/shot/immolated were just plain Not Guilty? Ick.What if some cop somehow gets it in their head that WE'RE a baddy (perhaps because they just tortured some other poor sucker - who named you/me/us because he HAD to name somebody or lose another nut he was fond of...)."...Yeah, ow, and they're well-known satanists too - because they play that D&D thing... Yeah, those freaks are up to something pretty sinister in there. And I think I saw them recruiting that missing person into their 'coven'... Ow!" I still maintain that Creasy (in Man on Fire) is a Lawful personality because of the structured way he approaches his mission and his sense of duty. This Does NOT mean that I ascribe to his concept of law or that I think his methods are appropriate in the administration of society's laws...Tempting though it may get from time to time...A'Mal</blockquote>

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