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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kahuna Burger" data-source="post: 3547004" data-attributes="member: 8439">Disagree with the consensous here. As there is a straightforward, mechanically foolproof way to subdue someone, the paladin would have instead have to deliberately and recklessly inflict lethal damage hoping to knock the innocent into the negs but not dead. Doing this knowing that he would have to fall back on an untrained heal check without magic to help is a murderous act,  and he can be sorry while seeking an atonement spell.Its all about the good faith effort - imo, within core rules the paladin did not make a good faith effort to stop the person without killing them.</blockquote>