Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Alignment Situations I
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Lord Pendragon" data-source="post: 809594" data-attributes="member: 707"><p>I'm aware that the original questions involved both axes, but <em>I</em> am not and have not been arguing about the Law/Chaos axis. I've argued that some actions that people have attributed to Chaotic-Good aren't <em>Good</em>, but I'm not arguing any points about Law/Chaos.Good points. But what I'm trying to say is that, if you <em>know</em> that the authorities will <em>kill the giant</em>, (regardless of whether you think they have the right or justification to do so,) then <em>your actions</em> are tantamount to killing the giant yourself. So by handing the giant over to an entity that you <em>know</em> will <em>kill the giant</em>, you can't claim you've done something Good, unless you can claim that <em>killing the giant</em> is a Good act. The fact that someone else actually does the deed doesn't allow the adventurers to keep their hands clean.*sigh* I guess that I'm just bad with analogies. The point is that although the doctor performing the abortion is <em>lawfully empowered</em> to destroy the fetus, some people strongly believe that it's <em>immoral</em>. The point was that <em>legality</em> does not add to any argument of <em>morality</em>. The two are independent. So the fact that town guards are involved doesn't matter when discussing the morality of the adventurers and the giant.The laws of the guards don't matter. Again, I'm not trying to argue legality.If his killing my mother is an evil act, how is my killing him a good act? Say my mother threatened to kill his sister. By your reasoning he's doing Good to kill my mother and protect his sister. If he's doing Good to kill my mother, how can I be doing Good to kill him? Killing is evil, in real-life and in game-terms. Sometimes an adventurer may consider it a necessary evil, but it is evil nevertheless. And the adventurers cannot escape that by simply forcing someone else to make the choice to kill the giants.</p><p>I presented the scenario as an ethical puzzle, not as a "what would you do?" Of course if this actually happened, you'd handle it differently. Don't ignore the moral question by trying to argue the details. Would you tell your brother, or would you lie to him, and why?All right, are you actually reading my posts? I've written a dozen times, in <em>italics</em> no less <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt="(:" title="Smile (:" data-smilie="1"data-shortname="(:" />p) that you have to <em>know</em> your actions are going to lead to evil. Not knowing isn't evil. Knowing and ignoring is at least partially evil. Let me (cross your fingers) slightly alter your example:</p><p></p><p>I see a cleric on the street zapping commoners with a wand of <em>destruction</em> (let it go). Eventually the wand runs out, so the cleric walks over to the wand vendor (conveniently on that same street) and tries to buy a new one. He doesn't have any cash, so he walks directly over to me and says "hey, I'll sell you this potion for $5." I give him the five bucks, he goes over and buys another wand, then starts zapping peasants again. Am I to blame for those deaths?</p><p></p><p>Not completely, but in part yes. I knew what he was, and I had a darned good idea that he was going to use my money to go over and buy another wand to kill more people. It's exactly the same with the fire giant. The adventurers know that the guards are going to have to kill the fire giant to protect themselves. So giving the guards the fire giant means that they are, partially, responsible for his death.Glad to know I'm not the only one giving bad examples in this thread. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> In your example, the adventurers are a passive element. They have no choice, and one cannot be held morally responsible without free-will. In the fire giant case, the adventurers <em>do</em> have free-will, and thus must be held accountable for their actions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lord Pendragon, post: 809594, member: 707"] I'm aware that the original questions involved both axes, but [i]I[/i] am not and have not been arguing about the Law/Chaos axis. I've argued that some actions that people have attributed to Chaotic-Good aren't [i]Good[/i], but I'm not arguing any points about Law/Chaos.Good points. But what I'm trying to say is that, if you [i]know[/i] that the authorities will [i]kill the giant[/i], (regardless of whether you think they have the right or justification to do so,) then [i]your actions[/i] are tantamount to killing the giant yourself. So by handing the giant over to an entity that you [i]know[/i] will [i]kill the giant[/i], you can't claim you've done something Good, unless you can claim that [i]killing the giant[/i] is a Good act. The fact that someone else actually does the deed doesn't allow the adventurers to keep their hands clean.*sigh* I guess that I'm just bad with analogies. The point is that although the doctor performing the abortion is [i]lawfully empowered[/i] to destroy the fetus, some people strongly believe that it's [i]immoral[/i]. The point was that [i]legality[/i] does not add to any argument of [i]morality[/i]. The two are independent. So the fact that town guards are involved doesn't matter when discussing the morality of the adventurers and the giant.The laws of the guards don't matter. Again, I'm not trying to argue legality.If his killing my mother is an evil act, how is my killing him a good act? Say my mother threatened to kill his sister. By your reasoning he's doing Good to kill my mother and protect his sister. If he's doing Good to kill my mother, how can I be doing Good to kill him? Killing is evil, in real-life and in game-terms. Sometimes an adventurer may consider it a necessary evil, but it is evil nevertheless. And the adventurers cannot escape that by simply forcing someone else to make the choice to kill the giants. I presented the scenario as an ethical puzzle, not as a "what would you do?" Of course if this actually happened, you'd handle it differently. Don't ignore the moral question by trying to argue the details. Would you tell your brother, or would you lie to him, and why?All right, are you actually reading my posts? I've written a dozen times, in [i]italics[/i] no less (:p) that you have to [i]know[/i] your actions are going to lead to evil. Not knowing isn't evil. Knowing and ignoring is at least partially evil. Let me (cross your fingers) slightly alter your example: I see a cleric on the street zapping commoners with a wand of [i]destruction[/i] (let it go). Eventually the wand runs out, so the cleric walks over to the wand vendor (conveniently on that same street) and tries to buy a new one. He doesn't have any cash, so he walks directly over to me and says "hey, I'll sell you this potion for $5." I give him the five bucks, he goes over and buys another wand, then starts zapping peasants again. Am I to blame for those deaths? Not completely, but in part yes. I knew what he was, and I had a darned good idea that he was going to use my money to go over and buy another wand to kill more people. It's exactly the same with the fire giant. The adventurers know that the guards are going to have to kill the fire giant to protect themselves. So giving the guards the fire giant means that they are, partially, responsible for his death.Glad to know I'm not the only one giving bad examples in this thread. :D In your example, the adventurers are a passive element. They have no choice, and one cannot be held morally responsible without free-will. In the fire giant case, the adventurers [i]do[/i] have free-will, and thus must be held accountable for their actions. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Alignment Situations I
Top