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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5480829" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Crust: I think that there are two separatable ideas here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree, but that's a separate point. It's not impossible that something which is itself not evil, could have a corrupting influence on someone so that it becomes evil for them. Suppose we argue that flogging a convicted criminal as a payment for their crime (as opposed to the slower torture of confinement) is morally neutral. It still might be the case that it is a thing greatly to be avoided because the act of flogging may encourage one to take pleasure in cruelty, which is certainly evil. Or suppose the consumpsion of alchohol is something that we want to argue is morally neutral. It still might be something which for someone is greatly to be avoided because for them it encourages them to drink until the point of drunkenness, which many will agree is evil.</p><p></p><p>But my original point still stands. When Gandalf said, "…do not be so eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.", he certainly wasn't speaking of the Balrog. Gollum was himself a free person who had been corrupted, not a being of thought who had had its nature set in immortal and ageless time. </p><p></p><p>And I disagree with you about Gollum's irredeemable nature as well. If Sam hadn't stirred from his sleep, and spoken a hasty and angry word because he was angry at himself for haven fallen asleep, then I don't believe Gollum would have been lost. It came down to a knife's edge with Gollum, and he almost made it. </p><p></p><p>On the whole though I quite agree with where you are going philosophically. As I said before, most adventures actions don't match their good alignments. Most adventurers actions tend to match either the gamist expendiency or moral expediency of the actors playing the game. Adventurers tend to do whatever is most expedient at the time with little regard to good or evil except in as much as they assume 'Good' essentially means 'my side wins'. I can quibble a little with you about the symmantics or the details, but to the extent that you seem to be wanting to encourage deeper reflection on the sort of actions players usually take I'm behind you 100%. I'm just not entirely sure demons and devils are the best vehicle for that, since the moral equivalency argument ('if you do that, you'll be just as bad as they are') just about never applies in that case. To argue that snuffing out a demon is evil is about like arguing that snuffing out ones anger, pride, envy or lust is evil because that's not merely what they promote, that is what they are - incarnated vice. To argue that the paladin can't kill the demon is like arguing that the paladin can't kill his own evil urges. If you aren't to kill them, what exactly are you to do with them? Is it morally evil to treat a disease with antibiotics when the disease is just beginning, or must you wait until its at its moment of strength and the fight is fairer?</p><p></p><p>If we were talking trolls or something I might be more on board without any qualms.</p><p></p><p>However, back to what I said at first, just because something isn't evil doesn't mean it can't be made evil or encourage evil.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5480829, member: 4937"] Crust: I think that there are two separatable ideas here. I agree, but that's a separate point. It's not impossible that something which is itself not evil, could have a corrupting influence on someone so that it becomes evil for them. Suppose we argue that flogging a convicted criminal as a payment for their crime (as opposed to the slower torture of confinement) is morally neutral. It still might be the case that it is a thing greatly to be avoided because the act of flogging may encourage one to take pleasure in cruelty, which is certainly evil. Or suppose the consumpsion of alchohol is something that we want to argue is morally neutral. It still might be something which for someone is greatly to be avoided because for them it encourages them to drink until the point of drunkenness, which many will agree is evil. But my original point still stands. When Gandalf said, "…do not be so eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.", he certainly wasn't speaking of the Balrog. Gollum was himself a free person who had been corrupted, not a being of thought who had had its nature set in immortal and ageless time. And I disagree with you about Gollum's irredeemable nature as well. If Sam hadn't stirred from his sleep, and spoken a hasty and angry word because he was angry at himself for haven fallen asleep, then I don't believe Gollum would have been lost. It came down to a knife's edge with Gollum, and he almost made it. On the whole though I quite agree with where you are going philosophically. As I said before, most adventures actions don't match their good alignments. Most adventurers actions tend to match either the gamist expendiency or moral expediency of the actors playing the game. Adventurers tend to do whatever is most expedient at the time with little regard to good or evil except in as much as they assume 'Good' essentially means 'my side wins'. I can quibble a little with you about the symmantics or the details, but to the extent that you seem to be wanting to encourage deeper reflection on the sort of actions players usually take I'm behind you 100%. I'm just not entirely sure demons and devils are the best vehicle for that, since the moral equivalency argument ('if you do that, you'll be just as bad as they are') just about never applies in that case. To argue that snuffing out a demon is evil is about like arguing that snuffing out ones anger, pride, envy or lust is evil because that's not merely what they promote, that is what they are - incarnated vice. To argue that the paladin can't kill the demon is like arguing that the paladin can't kill his own evil urges. If you aren't to kill them, what exactly are you to do with them? Is it morally evil to treat a disease with antibiotics when the disease is just beginning, or must you wait until its at its moment of strength and the fight is fairer? If we were talking trolls or something I might be more on board without any qualms. However, back to what I said at first, just because something isn't evil doesn't mean it can't be made evil or encourage evil. [/QUOTE]
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