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<blockquote data-quote="Crust" data-source="post: 5481014" data-attributes="member: 22330"><p>Thanks for the feedback, Celebrim. You've given me some things to consider as I weigh my portrayal of Hell. </p><p></p><p>*This may be a bit off topic, but I tried to keep it about alignment* </p><p></p><p>I also appreciate your take on LotR. Perhaps Gollum was capable of being redeemed given enough time and patience. I might add that like Smeagol, even the balrogs started out as "blank slates" of sorts that were corrupted by Melkor (perhaps the only being in Tolkien's universe who was truly the embodiment of "evil" or "discord" given the Music of the Ainur). Even Boromir was corrupted by his father's expectations and the pressures of society (dealing with Mordor, losing power to Aragorn, etc.). Smeagol strangled Deagol almost immediately upon seeing the Ring, and one can only imagine what made Smeagol such an easy student of violence and murder. It wasn't the Ring. If Smeagol were good, he'd have let Deagol have his ring much like Aragorn let Frodo leave the Fellowship. Boromir falls somewhere in the middle I think.</p><p></p><p>Concerning Gandalf and the balrog, clearly the balrog forced initiative (to use a gaming term), which in turn forced Gandalf to "deal out death in judgment," and perhaps Gandalf knew that he'd return from death as Gandalf the White, being awarded greater power by Manwe or Iluvatar for his sacrifice (like my paladin example I mentioned earlier, coming back more powerful than before for his righteous sacrifice). I wonder how things would have turned out if the balrog let the companions flee across the bridge. Would Gandalf have left the balrog alone? After all, Gandalf didn't attack the balrog at the bridge. He just destroyed the bridge, and the balrog forced Gandalf into combat afterward.</p><p></p><p>By comparison, a paladin in Hell (I'll be using parts of that module, by the way) might not rush at every spinagon and lemure he sees, hacking them down just because they exist (which would ultimately be futile). In that case, the object is killing not making the multiverse a safer place (a delusion created in the mind of the soon-to-be fallen paladin). However, when a pit fiend pounces and the paladin is wary, with actions readied and his wits about him, all bets are off and the paladin is defending himself and his friends as opposed to killing devils for the sake of killing. When the object of killing is killing (even killing devils), that's entering into the realm of evil. That's the delicate line I'm going to <em>try </em>to walk as my epic campaign enters into Hell. Some of my players with exalted PCs already understand this, but a few have the, as you say, "my side wins" mentality, and I'm trying to work with that a little bit given the information in <em>Exalted Deeds</em>.</p><p></p><p>I understand that devils are "always LE" and that they are evil incarnate, but in my campaign, that's all poetry and propaganda. What devils are does not make the act of killing any less serious. When fighting devils, the true danger is becoming a devil yourself, almost as if the evil present in Hell will seep into the PCs if they're not careful. I suppose that sums up what I'm going to tell my players before we enter Hell.</p><p></p><p>Your points about LotR (and everything else) are valid and give me something to think about in class, Celebrim, as I teach <em>The Hobbit</em> through <em>The Silmarillion</em>, and my take on those books changes every year.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crust, post: 5481014, member: 22330"] Thanks for the feedback, Celebrim. You've given me some things to consider as I weigh my portrayal of Hell. *This may be a bit off topic, but I tried to keep it about alignment* I also appreciate your take on LotR. Perhaps Gollum was capable of being redeemed given enough time and patience. I might add that like Smeagol, even the balrogs started out as "blank slates" of sorts that were corrupted by Melkor (perhaps the only being in Tolkien's universe who was truly the embodiment of "evil" or "discord" given the Music of the Ainur). Even Boromir was corrupted by his father's expectations and the pressures of society (dealing with Mordor, losing power to Aragorn, etc.). Smeagol strangled Deagol almost immediately upon seeing the Ring, and one can only imagine what made Smeagol such an easy student of violence and murder. It wasn't the Ring. If Smeagol were good, he'd have let Deagol have his ring much like Aragorn let Frodo leave the Fellowship. Boromir falls somewhere in the middle I think. Concerning Gandalf and the balrog, clearly the balrog forced initiative (to use a gaming term), which in turn forced Gandalf to "deal out death in judgment," and perhaps Gandalf knew that he'd return from death as Gandalf the White, being awarded greater power by Manwe or Iluvatar for his sacrifice (like my paladin example I mentioned earlier, coming back more powerful than before for his righteous sacrifice). I wonder how things would have turned out if the balrog let the companions flee across the bridge. Would Gandalf have left the balrog alone? After all, Gandalf didn't attack the balrog at the bridge. He just destroyed the bridge, and the balrog forced Gandalf into combat afterward. By comparison, a paladin in Hell (I'll be using parts of that module, by the way) might not rush at every spinagon and lemure he sees, hacking them down just because they exist (which would ultimately be futile). In that case, the object is killing not making the multiverse a safer place (a delusion created in the mind of the soon-to-be fallen paladin). However, when a pit fiend pounces and the paladin is wary, with actions readied and his wits about him, all bets are off and the paladin is defending himself and his friends as opposed to killing devils for the sake of killing. When the object of killing is killing (even killing devils), that's entering into the realm of evil. That's the delicate line I'm going to [I]try [/I]to walk as my epic campaign enters into Hell. Some of my players with exalted PCs already understand this, but a few have the, as you say, "my side wins" mentality, and I'm trying to work with that a little bit given the information in [I]Exalted Deeds[/I]. I understand that devils are "always LE" and that they are evil incarnate, but in my campaign, that's all poetry and propaganda. What devils are does not make the act of killing any less serious. When fighting devils, the true danger is becoming a devil yourself, almost as if the evil present in Hell will seep into the PCs if they're not careful. I suppose that sums up what I'm going to tell my players before we enter Hell. Your points about LotR (and everything else) are valid and give me something to think about in class, Celebrim, as I teach [I]The Hobbit[/I] through [I]The Silmarillion[/I], and my take on those books changes every year. [/QUOTE]
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