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<blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8697289" data-attributes="member: 67338"><p>by giving them choice and the ability to choose is the opposite of railroading... the game isn't 'my game' it's 'our game' now the players have lesser control, I would say somewhere between 50/50 with the DM having 50% and the players entirely control 50%. </p><p></p><p>a real life example would be a 3e game. It started in the sunless citadel and a 'major' subplot is the goblins and the kobolds were at war. When the PCs decided that they would pick a side (kobold) and help them I quickly made a kobold queen. She was a half dragon (this was new i wanted to play with templates) and I figured this would be a 1 off for this low level adventure. However the ranger/sorcerer PC decided he fell in love with her (he was a human so icky). this then meant that not only did the PCs continue to come back to the citadel after the adventure... but they now how a vested interest in the kobold 'kingdom'. </p><p>I can't remember the name of the town near the citadel but the PCs negotiated an alliance between the kobolds and the city... now I had to scramble no more could I just wing 'have sword will travel' the PCs were building a kingdom I didn't see coming. So I inserted a legend of an old mine where a great king long ago mines some super metal...</p><p></p><p>My plan at that point was to have the mine be mostly empty but have some hard to get diamonds and adamantine in it (thinking in my head hard things grow together) but when the PCs got there and saw crystals one said "Hey, how do you forge weapon and armors out of crystals" and I would have written it off as a joke and explained they were diamonds but another player said "You alloy it... take steel work the crystals in while it is liquids and hot like you add carbon to iron." well there went my notes since that sounded way better. So I had to scap the adamantine and diamond and instead the mystic crystals could be added to a metal when forgeing and make them better... so i decided (mostly pulling from my backside) that the process would be master work (again as per those 3e rules) but would also have 'other' abilities that I didn't fill out and I was going to make the metal look white... but as I went to describe it yet another player asked "Wait like see through" and I decided sure... like a milky glass. </p><p>Now I 100% expected they would move some allies to the mine, and get some crystals and make some new cool equipment... of course the ranger/sorcerer decided the first thing to make would be a ring... to propose to his 'beloved queen'</p><p>Now because of the fact that the kobolds in the mod that started this had a white dragon, I decided that she would request scale armor made for some of her 'elite kobold guards' (spoiler not very élite) and the PCs thought it was cool and said they should all get clear/white scale and work in some of the discarded scales of the dragon and become like an adder... but the rogue pointed out that he wasn't going to get much benfit from scale armor. That is when I decided what the 'other' property of this new metal would be... making it allow armor and weapons to be lighter. </p><p></p><p>At no point did I direct any of this game on rails... game 1 I did not imagine the Adder Knights forming a kingdom of Kobolds, Humans and Gnomes... if anything I WAS THE WATER not the PCs...</p><p></p><p>correct... in order to not be a railroad you have to be willing to throw an adventure away. (hence why I said I DO railroad if we all agree to play an adventure like curse of strahd) the choices in game have to matter. if the PCs go a way the DM didn't plan the DM has to let them, and modify there world to adjust (and a lot of time this means not using things you preped and making stuff up on the fly)</p><p></p><p>no but it doesn't mean they WILL be a railroad just that you have not shown how much the DM is willing to work... if that 1 choice is it... railroad if on the other hand (as I keep showing) the PCs make 100s of choices and most of them directly shape the plot the game and the world... that isn't railroading.</p><p></p><p>I mean It is more an assumption. how would you as a PC choose to do something if not to research it then go do it? that seems the most straight forward to me. </p><p></p><p>they have 100% control of what they do, they have limited control in the form of asking and suggesting (sometimes not even on purpose) things that are not under there control.</p><p></p><p>nope... I just authored the basic back drop... what happens is based on what the players do. </p><p></p><p>not luck choice. The PCs CHOOSE to do something and then I narrate the results... the things they care about get worked on more and things they don't care about get dropped. Not every choice is meaningful, but alot are. </p><p></p><p>and all of that is exactly what I described... go back and reread (or check out my I've always been playing 4e thread) please show me where you think anything I said contradicts this? Even to the point where my players can make up there own quest for a vampire that 5 minutes before they said it didn't exist. </p><p></p><p>I do not play nor have I read any of those so I can not comment</p><p></p><p>now we are back to the skill thing... look if a Player tells me they climb the tree to look for a clue, and I know there is no clue up there they can climb all they want that doesn't make a clue appear. A Player who searches for a hidden door in a wall that is solid with no hidden door is not going to make one appear most times (I say most cause if a player makes a suggestion I like I may make changes but I am under no obligation to) </p><p>that is not railroading... now you can have a style where that IS true, that there is no hidden passage but the Player authors it into exsistence... I just don't think saying anything short of that is railroading is helpful at all. </p><p></p><p>that is still not rail roading... by your defenition every defualt game of D&D 5e is a railroad.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GMforPowergamers, post: 8697289, member: 67338"] by giving them choice and the ability to choose is the opposite of railroading... the game isn't 'my game' it's 'our game' now the players have lesser control, I would say somewhere between 50/50 with the DM having 50% and the players entirely control 50%. a real life example would be a 3e game. It started in the sunless citadel and a 'major' subplot is the goblins and the kobolds were at war. When the PCs decided that they would pick a side (kobold) and help them I quickly made a kobold queen. She was a half dragon (this was new i wanted to play with templates) and I figured this would be a 1 off for this low level adventure. However the ranger/sorcerer PC decided he fell in love with her (he was a human so icky). this then meant that not only did the PCs continue to come back to the citadel after the adventure... but they now how a vested interest in the kobold 'kingdom'. I can't remember the name of the town near the citadel but the PCs negotiated an alliance between the kobolds and the city... now I had to scramble no more could I just wing 'have sword will travel' the PCs were building a kingdom I didn't see coming. So I inserted a legend of an old mine where a great king long ago mines some super metal... My plan at that point was to have the mine be mostly empty but have some hard to get diamonds and adamantine in it (thinking in my head hard things grow together) but when the PCs got there and saw crystals one said "Hey, how do you forge weapon and armors out of crystals" and I would have written it off as a joke and explained they were diamonds but another player said "You alloy it... take steel work the crystals in while it is liquids and hot like you add carbon to iron." well there went my notes since that sounded way better. So I had to scap the adamantine and diamond and instead the mystic crystals could be added to a metal when forgeing and make them better... so i decided (mostly pulling from my backside) that the process would be master work (again as per those 3e rules) but would also have 'other' abilities that I didn't fill out and I was going to make the metal look white... but as I went to describe it yet another player asked "Wait like see through" and I decided sure... like a milky glass. Now I 100% expected they would move some allies to the mine, and get some crystals and make some new cool equipment... of course the ranger/sorcerer decided the first thing to make would be a ring... to propose to his 'beloved queen' Now because of the fact that the kobolds in the mod that started this had a white dragon, I decided that she would request scale armor made for some of her 'elite kobold guards' (spoiler not very élite) and the PCs thought it was cool and said they should all get clear/white scale and work in some of the discarded scales of the dragon and become like an adder... but the rogue pointed out that he wasn't going to get much benfit from scale armor. That is when I decided what the 'other' property of this new metal would be... making it allow armor and weapons to be lighter. At no point did I direct any of this game on rails... game 1 I did not imagine the Adder Knights forming a kingdom of Kobolds, Humans and Gnomes... if anything I WAS THE WATER not the PCs... correct... in order to not be a railroad you have to be willing to throw an adventure away. (hence why I said I DO railroad if we all agree to play an adventure like curse of strahd) the choices in game have to matter. if the PCs go a way the DM didn't plan the DM has to let them, and modify there world to adjust (and a lot of time this means not using things you preped and making stuff up on the fly) no but it doesn't mean they WILL be a railroad just that you have not shown how much the DM is willing to work... if that 1 choice is it... railroad if on the other hand (as I keep showing) the PCs make 100s of choices and most of them directly shape the plot the game and the world... that isn't railroading. I mean It is more an assumption. how would you as a PC choose to do something if not to research it then go do it? that seems the most straight forward to me. they have 100% control of what they do, they have limited control in the form of asking and suggesting (sometimes not even on purpose) things that are not under there control. nope... I just authored the basic back drop... what happens is based on what the players do. not luck choice. The PCs CHOOSE to do something and then I narrate the results... the things they care about get worked on more and things they don't care about get dropped. Not every choice is meaningful, but alot are. and all of that is exactly what I described... go back and reread (or check out my I've always been playing 4e thread) please show me where you think anything I said contradicts this? Even to the point where my players can make up there own quest for a vampire that 5 minutes before they said it didn't exist. I do not play nor have I read any of those so I can not comment now we are back to the skill thing... look if a Player tells me they climb the tree to look for a clue, and I know there is no clue up there they can climb all they want that doesn't make a clue appear. A Player who searches for a hidden door in a wall that is solid with no hidden door is not going to make one appear most times (I say most cause if a player makes a suggestion I like I may make changes but I am under no obligation to) that is not railroading... now you can have a style where that IS true, that there is no hidden passage but the Player authors it into exsistence... I just don't think saying anything short of that is railroading is helpful at all. that is still not rail roading... by your defenition every defualt game of D&D 5e is a railroad. [/QUOTE]
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