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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 8698344" data-attributes="member: 6684958">Right, the big player choice in the game is the metagame &quot;what will we do today&quot;.&nbsp; Ok, but after that there are no &quot;big&quot; choices.Right.&nbsp; But then think of all the things in life where deception is OK.&nbsp; Performance Magic is pure deception, but no one says it's wrong.&nbsp; The vast majority of fiction used deception to shock and awe the audience,&nbsp; no one says it's wrong.&nbsp; Surprise Parties are common, and you often have to deceive the person it's for, and no one thinks it's wrong.&nbsp; A vast majority of games&nbsp; involve deception, and no one says that is wrong.&nbsp; The vast majority of team sports involve deception, and no one thinks that is wrong.&nbsp; It is impossible to fool, surprise or anything else &quot;the character&quot;, as the character is not real.&nbsp; I don't get this at all.&nbsp; So the DM just says some random stuff and can get away with it because the players &quot;agree&quot; to it?So, I use all this as a non example.&nbsp; ONE player decided to do a silly &quot;love&quot; plot and the other players choose to join with the kobolds.&nbsp; Ok, so this has nothing to do with the Sunless Citadel adventure:&nbsp; the DM can run the game through a hard railroad and the players choices have nothing to do with that.&nbsp; So, just to check that &quot;suddenly improving&quot; that the mine just happened to have some super metal is no Railroading as the players CHOSE to go there.&nbsp; So you had a plan and changed it based on some random stuff the players said.&nbsp; So, because the players randomly said something this is not a railroad.&nbsp; That makes no sense. Right, you just sat back and let the players DM the game and made everything in the game that they liked.&nbsp; The players want X, and you rolled out the red carpet and said &quot;ok&quot;.&nbsp; But I also notice there is no adventure here, it's just free form role playing.&nbsp; Your just sitting back and making the game reality whatever the players want.I disagree.&nbsp; If the players are going to just toss the adventure away on a whim, then they can find another DM.&nbsp; This is not about player choice, this is about not being a jerk.&nbsp; Well, I can agree with this.&nbsp; IF the players take TIME and RESOURCES to look and plan ahead knowledgeably, then they can make an informed decision.&nbsp; So if your having fun and enjoying the game, do such things matter?The big question here is how and why did avoiding encounters become this big badge of honor player thing?&nbsp; How is choosing not to play the game such a big victory?&nbsp; A great many players would say encounters are a big part of the fun of the game.&nbsp; A lot of platers would much rather have an encounter then a &quot;well nothing happens&quot; for hours.&nbsp; So why is avoiding one a good thing?&nbsp; The only way it makes sense is if the players are just hostile and are trying to ruin the game for the DM.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 8698344, member: 6684958"] Right, the big player choice in the game is the metagame "what will we do today". Ok, but after that there are no "big" choices. Right. But then think of all the things in life where deception is OK. Performance Magic is pure deception, but no one says it's wrong. The vast majority of fiction used deception to shock and awe the audience, no one says it's wrong. Surprise Parties are common, and you often have to deceive the person it's for, and no one thinks it's wrong. A vast majority of games involve deception, and no one says that is wrong. The vast majority of team sports involve deception, and no one thinks that is wrong. It is impossible to fool, surprise or anything else "the character", as the character is not real. I don't get this at all. So the DM just says some random stuff and can get away with it because the players "agree" to it? So, I use all this as a non example. ONE player decided to do a silly "love" plot and the other players choose to join with the kobolds. Ok, so this has nothing to do with the Sunless Citadel adventure: the DM can run the game through a hard railroad and the players choices have nothing to do with that. So, just to check that "suddenly improving" that the mine just happened to have some super metal is no Railroading as the players CHOSE to go there. So you had a plan and changed it based on some random stuff the players said. So, because the players randomly said something this is not a railroad. That makes no sense. Right, you just sat back and let the players DM the game and made everything in the game that they liked. The players want X, and you rolled out the red carpet and said "ok". But I also notice there is no adventure here, it's just free form role playing. Your just sitting back and making the game reality whatever the players want. I disagree. If the players are going to just toss the adventure away on a whim, then they can find another DM. This is not about player choice, this is about not being a jerk. Well, I can agree with this. IF the players take TIME and RESOURCES to look and plan ahead knowledgeably, then they can make an informed decision. So if your having fun and enjoying the game, do such things matter? The big question here is how and why did avoiding encounters become this big badge of honor player thing? How is choosing not to play the game such a big victory? A great many players would say encounters are a big part of the fun of the game. A lot of platers would much rather have an encounter then a "well nothing happens" for hours. So why is avoiding one a good thing? The only way it makes sense is if the players are just hostile and are trying to ruin the game for the DM. [/QUOTE]

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