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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 8702430" data-attributes="member: 6684958">If I were to ask for an example of &quot;player agency where players make a meaningful choice&quot;, I bet your example would be avoiding an encounter.&nbsp; Again, that example has been used dozens of times.&nbsp; Guess it just looked that way to me as no one was giving any postive examples.Railroad example: DM says(to themselves) &quot;no matter the road they pick they will encounter the fire troll bandits.&nbsp; It's a well balanced challenging fun encounter I made, I think everyone will like it, and we will use it.Player Agency Example(players out loud)-&quot;the DM has encouter set at the South Bridge, lets leave town by the North Road, so the DM can't use that encounter.&nbsp; Ha, we will show that DM to come prepared to a game!&quot;Was there a postive example I missed?&nbsp; Maybe repost it?Ok, so what would you require here for a choice?&nbsp; A safe boring path down where nothing happens?&nbsp; Or a ladder up and out of the caves?&nbsp; Or something else?&nbsp; Why can't things happen in a game world without the players approval?&nbsp; Would this example be better if there was a foe causing the rockfalls TO trap the characters?&nbsp; I guess here the DM can't &quot;just say&quot; that is the way each NPC is?&nbsp; And this is an example of &quot;if a DM makes any plans, its always wrong&quot;.&nbsp; Right?&nbsp; Only pure random improv is the right way.&nbsp; And why must the players have the ability to alter reality?&nbsp; Unless the players are High Ups in the social group, why would anything they do effect the Big Npc?&nbsp;But ok, lets say the DM just improved the big NPCs.&nbsp; Then when the players &quot;do stuff&quot; the DM has the big NPCs react to the players stuff.&nbsp; So is this not illusionism?&nbsp; Making the players feel special no matter what they do?Sounds fine to me.&nbsp; Though really you can just drop the pointless choice.&nbsp; Just have the mystery person offer one item.&nbsp; Even better if it's a group item.&nbsp; As many players are greedy, look before they leap and do zero research it is easy to curse characters a lot.&nbsp; The set up is so easy: The Glade of Good is where some unicorns guard a vorpal sword.&nbsp; A lot of players will murderhobo those unicorns in no time...and get a curse doing so, start plot.&nbsp; This is a perfect example of, yes SOMETIMES things just happen to characters that they can't avoid.&nbsp; That is life, even game life.&nbsp; Everything can't be only because of choices and concquences.&nbsp; You lost me here.&nbsp; When the PCs follow the false clues don't they figure out the Lady is innocent?&nbsp; A railroad, by design, would offer real clues that did not fit the red herring clues.&nbsp; And I'm not sure the &quot;quantum&quot; one is a railroad.&nbsp; Your talking about a DM that does not make a &quot;mystery&quot; they just sit back and let the players &quot;DM&quot; the mystery, and whatever the players say, the DM is like &quot;wow, you guys solved it!&quot;&nbsp; That is not railroading.&nbsp; I'd call that side table buddy DMing.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 8702430, member: 6684958"] If I were to ask for an example of "player agency where players make a meaningful choice", I bet your example would be avoiding an encounter. Again, that example has been used dozens of times. Guess it just looked that way to me as no one was giving any postive examples. Railroad example: DM says(to themselves) "no matter the road they pick they will encounter the fire troll bandits. It's a well balanced challenging fun encounter I made, I think everyone will like it, and we will use it. Player Agency Example(players out loud)-"the DM has encouter set at the South Bridge, lets leave town by the North Road, so the DM can't use that encounter. Ha, we will show that DM to come prepared to a game!" Was there a postive example I missed? Maybe repost it? Ok, so what would you require here for a choice? A safe boring path down where nothing happens? Or a ladder up and out of the caves? Or something else? Why can't things happen in a game world without the players approval? Would this example be better if there was a foe causing the rockfalls TO trap the characters? I guess here the DM can't "just say" that is the way each NPC is? And this is an example of "if a DM makes any plans, its always wrong". Right? Only pure random improv is the right way. And why must the players have the ability to alter reality? Unless the players are High Ups in the social group, why would anything they do effect the Big Npc? But ok, lets say the DM just improved the big NPCs. Then when the players "do stuff" the DM has the big NPCs react to the players stuff. So is this not illusionism? Making the players feel special no matter what they do? Sounds fine to me. Though really you can just drop the pointless choice. Just have the mystery person offer one item. Even better if it's a group item. As many players are greedy, look before they leap and do zero research it is easy to curse characters a lot. The set up is so easy: The Glade of Good is where some unicorns guard a vorpal sword. A lot of players will murderhobo those unicorns in no time...and get a curse doing so, start plot. This is a perfect example of, yes SOMETIMES things just happen to characters that they can't avoid. That is life, even game life. Everything can't be only because of choices and concquences. You lost me here. When the PCs follow the false clues don't they figure out the Lady is innocent? A railroad, by design, would offer real clues that did not fit the red herring clues. And I'm not sure the "quantum" one is a railroad. Your talking about a DM that does not make a "mystery" they just sit back and let the players "DM" the mystery, and whatever the players say, the DM is like "wow, you guys solved it!" That is not railroading. I'd call that side table buddy DMing. [/QUOTE]

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