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Message: <blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 5746069" data-attributes="member: 92511">The next "set" expands on the first in terms of character (race, class) options, new/more monsters, maybe different armor and weapons, etc... but not necessarily any new "rules".I was thinking something along the lines of 4 "themed" sets to work in other "classics" and favorites. What I came up with (obviously based on my own game's allowances first) before falling asleep were the following (or the beginning inklings of the following):Woodland ChampionsAdditional RacesHalf-elfSatyrGnomeSpriteAdditional ClassesBard (thief base/abilities, harkening back to a Druid-based spell list with some Illusions)Druid (new spell list)Illusionist (new spell list)Ranger (introduce Tracking, thief Stealth, and bow specialization)Half-elves (in keeping with their origins for versatility) may be: Any single class (like Humans), + 4 multi-class: Ftr/MU (like elves), Cle/MU, MU/Thf or Rgr/CleSatyrs may be: Bard, Druid, Ranger or Ftr/ThfGnome may be: Fighter, Illusionist, Thief or Illusionist/ThiefSprite may be: Fighter, Illusionist, Thief or Ftr/Thf.Shadow ChampionsAdditional RacesHalf-orcDrowDuergar (?)GoblinAdditional ClassesAssassin (thief abilities, introduce poison use, additional Stealth and Sneak Attack bumps)Blackguard (nasty fighter guys with abilities to match)Cultist (nasty cleric guys with abilities to match)Necromancer (nasty magic-user guys, undead creation/control, new spell list)Half-orcs may be: Cleric, Fighter, Thief, Assassin, Cultist + Cle/Thf, Cle/Ftr, Ftr/Thf, or Cleric/AssassinDrow may be: Any available Elf combo + Assassin, Cle/Ftr, Cle/Thf and Assassin/MUDuergar may be: Any Dwarf combo + MU, Blackguard, Necromancer,  or Ftr/MUGoblin: Any Halfling combo + Assassin, Cultist, Illusionist or Illusionist/Thief.   Devout ChampionsNo Additional Races (other than "Aasimar" comes to mind and I wouldn't really want to get into the whole "outsider" thing just yet...maybe the tertiary set)Additional ClassesDiviner ("holy" MU-type, like an Oraclular order?, new spell list)Healer ("holy" Cleric-type, more "priest" than "cleric"? additional abilities to match)Paladin ("holy" Ftr-type, abilities to match)Monk (''holy" Thf-type, unarmed combat, thief Stealth and Acrobatics skills)Battlefield ChampionsEither No Additional Races or possible Additional Races, at DMs discretion (given these seem to be favorites for some), like:GoliathHalf-OgreMinotaurSomething else...need a 4th.Additonal ClassesBarbarian (damage dealing bumps, damage reduction/absorbtion...stay fighting into negatives or something? Tracking, introduce Two-Weapon Fighting?)Evoker ("battle" MU-type, new spell list) Sniper (a "battle" Thf-type, like a Ranger/Thief combo, Stealth and Sneak Attack bumps, Tracking, bonuses to missile fire -both frequency and damage) Warpriest (a more "battle-oriented" Cle-type...maybe bundle this class' abilities with 4e's "Warlord"? [this is tough to wrap my head around, but people seem to love them], abilities to match, no "shout" healing though. I just hate that! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />PCs from the first set could continue on in their original class or transition into one of these "champions" classes (from their Base class! One would/could not go from a Fighter to being a Necromancer, for example).Introduce 4-blocks for some new armor and weapons.Armor:Studded Leather Field PlateSplint....and uhhhhh...?Hide, maybe?...or that's too similar to Leather...well, you get the idea. And maybe only one or two new 4-blocks of different kinds of weapons that really only serve to expand "flavor" (falchions, khopeshes, halberds, bolos, etc...)This would get the players from 5th to 8th...4 levels <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Adventures take on larger scale, moving from "delve into the dungeons and get your feet on the ground" to take on "saving the world and inter-realm conflicts if not full on war". Leaving off the PCs at the precipice of "ye olde name level" to begin their next "tier"/set.  I think the 4 "champions" subsets presented here cover all of the basics/classics (and some not-so-classic) races and classes and most often played/common magic-user "specialist" archetypes (not counting the Diviner among the "most played", of course...but it is something of an archetype). You get the idea. These "Champions" lists could go on, with or without additional Races (since you'd need 4 races for each and that gets difficult)...and/or Champion blocks that have new races and not new classes."Urban Champions", "Desert Champions", "Other Worldly Champions" (as an example of a 'new races' block without new classes...for those who want to incorporate things like Aasimar, Half-Elementals, Tieflings, etc.), etc. etc. So, "bloat" only really becomes a particular DM's or group's tolerance for where the number of options becomes too much/many...kinda like it did, for me, starting in the 2e splat book craze and carrying on well through 3e.What gets incorporated or left out, obviously, is purely a matter of group taste and desire.</blockquote>

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