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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8284519" data-attributes="member: 71699">I'm correct on the win con argument, but it is okay that you think otherwise. Possibly we agree about assigning goals to RPGs, rather than win conditions in a boardgame or zero-sum sense. We might agree that SP and SI play acts are most meaningful when connected to goals, although goals are constantly updated. Although it frequently goes unnoted, players enter the game from outside and bring goals with them from that larger context. This means it is not possible to tell what the goals of a player are through only scrutinising the game.While we can describe the steps and say what must happen to satisfy SP, there is no similarly settled picture for SI. As you (hopefully) know, I in fact discount SI from even being gameful, unless it is what I call gameful-narrative. In that mode, it will respect the game mechanics and do the work to navigate, and have expectations that are open to, each turn of events.</blockquote>