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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8285118" data-attributes="member: 6696971">[USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER]Before I put together a post about system + narrative cohesion, I need to make sure I'm clear on the parameters of your &quot;gameful narrative&quot; usage.So far as I can tell, this was your answer to my question.&nbsp; But its still not clear to me what the upshot and what the limits of this are.&nbsp; Are you meaning:The way games wed Theme and Premise to Skill which, working in concert, create a process and structure of play which facilitates an emergent narrative that is an inevitable, coherent outgrowth of that marriage.Is this what you mean?&nbsp; Because if this is what you mean, I have talked about this plenty in the last many, many years.&nbsp; But I don't use the term &quot;Gameful&quot; or &quot;Gameful Narrative&quot; to express this.&nbsp; I have used the term &quot;systemitized.&quot;Could you confirm if this is true or not?If not, could you correct my understanding of what you're trying to communicate with &quot;Gameful Narrative?&quot;And if I am correct, can you confirm to me how you feel that D&amp;D 5e is that game.&nbsp; Because I know a lot of games that intimately wed Theme and Premise to Skill...and D&amp;D 5e is NOT that game (by design...it couldn't be that game and achieve the heterogenous play that it sought...and attained by dent of its successful design).&nbsp; D&amp;D 5e has intentionally designed in holes all over the place in it’s “marry theme/premise to skill” game. Where those holes are the 5e answer is &lt;insert GM&gt; (again, intentionally designed this way).&nbsp; In those other game's &quot;the system's say&quot; (another phrase you'll see me use a lot) is final.&nbsp; Its not a mutable characteristic that you can toggle off and &lt;insert GM&gt;.&nbsp; Its an immutable, constraining feature of play (on all participants, GM included...or even primary).Before I put a lot of effort into a large, clarifying post on this subject (and especially in light of your most recent posts to Ovinomancer which, I feel, further serve to obscure your intent/meaning/positioning so that I'm not clear what series of ideas you're putting forth...it almost seems like you're now clarifying that you're claiming multiple positions in some sort of Devil's Advocate stance?&nbsp; There is a lot of half (but not full)-Steelmanning of several incompatible positions in what you're saying).EDIT - And before I put together a large post on Win Cons in games, can you clarify why you feel that &quot;Skilled Play (as its been constituted in this thread) is a chimera?&quot;&nbsp; I've given a breakdown of Skilled Play in the various iterations of D&amp;D.&nbsp; Further, I've given a very specific definition and explained at length why &quot;Boardgaming&quot; is necessary but not sufficient (because it doesn't include the &quot;shared imagined space&quot; component that is part and parcel of Skilled Play in TTRPGing).&nbsp; I don't see a disagreement in this thread from the primary participants, yet you continue to put forthe &quot;its a chimera&quot; as a response.&nbsp; So can you explain that (so I can comment before I put together a large post on Win Cons...I don't want to have to keep going back and forth or put something large together only to have the inevitable &quot;I disagree with the premise!&quot; plot-line emerge).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8285118, member: 6696971"] [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] Before I put together a post about system + narrative cohesion, I need to make sure I'm clear on the parameters of your "gameful narrative" usage. So far as I can tell, this was your answer to my question. But its still not clear to me what the upshot and what the limits of this are. Are you meaning: [I]The way games [B]wed Theme and Premise to Skill[/B] which, working in concert, create [B]a process and structure of play which facilitates an emergent narrative that is an inevitable, coherent outgrowth of that marriage.[/B][/I] Is this what you mean? Because if this is what you mean, I have talked about this plenty in the last many, many years. But I don't use the term "Gameful" or "Gameful Narrative" to express this. I have used the term "systemitized." Could you confirm if this is true or not? If not, could you correct my understanding of what you're trying to communicate with "Gameful Narrative?" And if I am correct, can you confirm to me how you feel that D&D 5e is [I]that [/I]game. Because I know a lot of games that intimately wed Theme and Premise to Skill...and D&D 5e is NOT that game (by design...it couldn't be that game and achieve the heterogenous play that it sought...and attained by dent of its successful design). D&D 5e has intentionally designed in [I]holes [/I]all over the place in it’s “marry theme/premise to skill” game. Where those holes are the 5e answer is <[I]insert GM[/I]> (again, intentionally designed this way). In those other game's "the system's say" (another phrase you'll see me use a lot) is final. Its not a mutable characteristic that you can toggle off and <insert GM>. Its an immutable, constraining feature of play (on all participants, GM included...or even primary). Before I put a lot of effort into a large, clarifying post on this subject (and especially in light of your most recent posts to Ovinomancer which, I feel, further serve to obscure your intent/meaning/positioning so that I'm not clear what series of ideas you're putting forth...it almost seems like you're now clarifying that you're claiming multiple positions in some sort of Devil's Advocate stance? There is a lot of half (but not full)-Steelmanning of several incompatible positions in what you're saying). EDIT - And before I put together a large post on Win Cons in games, can you clarify why you feel that "Skilled Play (as its been constituted in this thread) is a chimera?" I've given a breakdown of Skilled Play in the various iterations of D&D. Further, I've given a very specific definition and explained at length why "Boardgaming" is [I][B]necessary but not sufficient (because it doesn't include the "shared imagined space" component that is part and parcel of Skilled Play in TTRPGing).[/B][/I] I don't see a disagreement in this thread from the primary participants, yet you continue to put forthe "its a chimera" as a response. So can you explain that (so I can comment before I put together a large post on Win Cons...I don't want to have to keep going back and forth or put something large together only to have the inevitable "I disagree with the premise!" plot-line emerge). [/QUOTE]

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