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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5887943" data-attributes="member: 42582">I'm just trying to do the maths here.A 1st level AD&D thief who uses a longsword does 1d12 damage against size L targets. This is doubled when backstabbing, for an average of 13 and a maximum of 24.During surprise, each segment permits a full round's worth of attacks. So 2 segments of surprise permit two backstabs, for damage (on two hits) of an average of 26 and a maximum of 48. The +4 to hit on those attacks will compensate - probably more than compensate - for the fighter's better STR and attack matrix.But how are you getting to a maximum of 140 points of damage? Even with 5 segments of surprise - which can't normally be achieved (there is no rule, is there, that says a sneaking thief surprises on a 1 to 5?) - this would require a maximum of 28 damage on each attack,or a maximum of 14 before doubling. Where is the extra +2 coming from.Here is a different comparison: at 1st level, against a L target, a fighter with a two-handed sword does 3d6 plus STR bonus - let's call it a +1 bonus, for a maximum of 19 and an average of 11.5. This is very close to the thief's backstab with maximum 24 and average of 13. With UA and weapon specialisation - +1 to hit, +2 to damage - the fighter will have a chance to hit in ordinary circumstances fairly close to that of the thief, and expected damage against L targets more or less on a par with the thief's backstab damage.Even against a S/M target, the fighter with a two-handed sword and a +1 STR bonus will average 6.5, maximum 11, compared to a backstabing rogues average 9, maximum 16 with a longsword. UA again brings the fighter's damage output almost on par with the thief's.At higher levels, a rogue's backstab damage will begin to outpace the fighter's ordinary damage, because the fighter is highly front-loaded (nothing down the track except magic weapon pluses and the hope for stat gains, at least until 7th level) whereas the rogue gets better backstab multipliers from 5th level (and the same weapon pluses and stat gains). But I'm having trouble working out your 1st level example. What have I missed?</blockquote>

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