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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arkhandus" data-source="post: 3259209" data-attributes="member: 13966">DMCal......how did destroying undead work?  Your houserule doesn't mention how it's accomplished in this set-up, since it obviously doesn't use the standard set-up.  Is it simply that undead with no more hit dice than half the cleric's level are destroyed, instead of turned, if they fail the save?  Or no?Is that same sorta restriction used for commanding undead (as opposed to merely rebuking them)?If destroying undead is still doable that way, I would expect commanded undead to remain under the evil cleric's control indefinitely, so long as the undeads' total hit dice were within a certain limit, as normal.....  Gaining brief control over some undead, as opposed to destroying them permanently, seems kinda less effective.I'm not sure how this would work out in play, though, and don't have the chance to playtest it......  So I'm not sure how well it actually works (or if it's under- or over-powered).Anyway, here are a few turning/rebuking alternatives I might propose.....  I don't have Complete Divine, but I'm fairly sure I've read about its turn/rebuke change before, and thought it was overpowered or something.....1st Variant: Simple Damage/Healing Version[sblock]Turn/Rebuke Undead (Su): As a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, you may activate this supernatural ability targeting all undead creatures within a 60-foot emanation.  You must present your holy symbol or unholy symbol boldly towards the undead, held forth in one hand.  Bright light shines forth when turning undead, or brief rays of darkness pulse outward when rebuking undead.  Any undead to be affected must be within your line of sight.  You may turn undead if you are a paladin with the Turn Undead ability, or if you are a cleric who casts spontaneous Cure spells.  You may rebuke undead if you are a cleric who casts spontaneous Inflict spells.  Certain other classes may also possess one ability or the other.  The effects of turning or rebuking undead are instantaneous, except where mentioned otherwise.When you activate this ability, you deal positive energy damage (if turning) or negative energy damage (if rebuking) to each undead creature within the area of effect.  The damage is equal to your cleric level plus your Charisma modifier, to a minimum of 1 damage.  Note that negative energy heals undead, rather than harming them.You may further increase the damage dealt, or healed (by negative energy damage), by spending more than one turning or rebuking attempt when you activate this ability.  For each additional daily use expended at the same time, double the damage.  You cannot, however, expend more than half of your daily number of turning or rebuking attempts at once.Note that two doublings is a tripling, three doublings is a quadrupling, and so on.  Thus, if you spend four turning attempts at once, you deal four times normal damage.  However, to do so, you would need to be capable of at least eight turning attempts per day.Each undead creature to be damaged, rather than healed, is allowed a Will saving throw to negate this damage against itself.  The save DC is equal to 10 + half your cleric level + your Charisma modifier.  Turn Resistance possessed by the undead creatures, if any, is applied on their saving throw, and also applies effectively as Damage Reduction against the positive energy damage, if any.You cannot bolster undead, dispel turning, or command undead with this variant.[/sblock]2nd Variant: Advanced Damage/Healing Version[sblock]Turn/Rebuke Undead (Su): As a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, you may activate this supernatural ability targeting all undead creatures within a 60-foot emanation.  You must present your holy symbol or unholy symbol boldly towards the undead, held forth in one hand.  Bright light shines forth when turning undead, or brief rays of darkness pulse outward when rebuking undead.  Any undead to be affected must be within your line of sight.  You may turn undead if you are a paladin with the Turn Undead ability, or if you are a cleric who casts spontaneous Cure spells.  You may rebuke undead if you are a cleric who casts spontaneous Inflict spells.  Certain other classes may also possess one ability or the other.  The effects of turning or rebuking undead are instantaneous, except where mentioned otherwise.When you activate this ability, you deal positive energy damage (if turning) or negative energy damage (if rebuking) to each undead creature within the area of effect.  The damage is 1d4 + your Charisma modifier.  You deal a minimum of 1 damage per die, regardless of Charisma.  Note that negative energy heals undead, rather than harming them.  Any undead with Turn Resistance apply that modifier as though to Damage Reduction of 0/-, similar to a barbarian's, against this ability.  Thus, for instance, an undead creature with Turn Resistance +2 effectively has Damage Reduction 2/- against this ability.  This does not, however, apply against any healing from this ability.You cannot affect more than 1 undead creature per cleric level, plus 1 undead creature per point of positive Charisma modifier, with each turning or rebuking attempt, and the closest creatures are affected first.  Regardless of Charisma or effective cleric level, you may turn or rebuke a minimum of 1 undead creature, as long as you possess the ability to turn or rebuke undead.If there are fewer undead than this, within the area of effect, then the remaining damage dice are distributed amongst the closest undead, until all of them are distributed.  However, no more dice of damage may be dealt to any single undead, with each turning or rebuking attempt, than half your cleric level plus your full Charisma modifier, to a minimum of 1 die.  Thus, if you were a 2nd-level cleric and had a Charisma modifier of +2, your maximum damage against any given undead creature, with each turning or rebuking attempt, would be 3d4 + your Charisma modifier.  Furthermore, your Charisma modifier applies only once to the damage against each undead creature, for each turning or rebuking attempt.As an example, if there are four undead and you are able to affect only up to four undead, then you would deal 1d4 + your Charisma modifier in damage to each.  But if you were only able to affect two undead, then this would only be dealt to the closest two.  On the other hand, if there were three undead, and you had the capacity to affect up to seven, then you would deal 3d4 + your Charisma modifier in damage to the closest undead, 2d4 + your Charisma modifier in damage to the second-closest, and 2d4 + your Charisma modifier in damage to the third-closest.If you turn undead, then any who are destroyed by this ability are completely obliterated, leaving no remains except for any items worn or carried.  This does not destroy the soul, if any, but returns the soul to wherever it belongs among the Outer Planes or the afterlife.If you rebuke undead, then any undead creature you would heal by an amount equal to, or greater than, its normal maximum hit points is instead brought under your command, if not already under your command.  When this occurs, then it replaces the healing that would have taken place for that undead creature.  If the undead creature has Turn Resistance, apply double that modifier to the creature's effective total hit points, for purposes of determining whether or not the creature is brought under your command.  Thus, Turn Resistance of +2 would add +4 to the creature's effective hit points for this purpose.At the moment these undead are brought under your control, they cease following all former orders from other undead-controlling abilities and effects, and instead halt to await your commands.  If they were attacking you or otherwise hindering you, they cease and, if keeping you bound or your mouth covered, cease doing that as well.  They will not drop you or let go if they were already holding you beforehand, but they will cease covering your mouth if they were covering it before.Undead brought under command by this ability are permanently under your mental control, but may only carry out orders within the limits of its Intelligence; a mindless undead with no Intelligence score can only perform the simplest functions.  Issuing commands to undead controlled in this manner functions as per the core rules.You cannot bolster undead or dispel turning with this variant.[/sblock]3rd Variant: Closer To Standard But Simpler Version[sblock]Turn/Rebuke Undead (Su): As a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, you may activate this supernatural ability targeting all undead creatures within a 60-foot emanation.  You must present your holy symbol or unholy symbol boldly towards the undead, held forth in one hand.  Bright light shines forth when turning undead, or brief rays of darkness pulse outward when rebuking undead.  Any undead to be affected must be within your line of sight.  You may turn undead if you are a paladin with the Turn Undead ability, or if you are a cleric who casts spontaneous Cure spells.  You may rebuke undead if you are a cleric who casts spontaneous Inflict spells.  Certain other classes may also possess one ability or the other.  The effects of turning or rebuking undead are instantaneous, except where mentioned otherwise.Each undead creature is turned or rebuked if it fails a Will saving throw, against a DC equal to 5 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier.  Each undead creature who fails the Will save, are destroyed or commanded if their number of hit dice is no greater than half your cleric level.  Turned undead are destroyed in this manner if the conditions are met, while rebuked undead are destroyed in this manner if the conditions are met.  Any undead creatures with Turn Resistance apply it as a bonus to their Will save, and their effective number of hit dice for purposes of determining whether or not they are eligible to be destroyed or commanded.The effects of turning, rebuking, destroying, and commanding undead are the same as in the core rules, except that clerics cannot command undead with hit dice greater than half the cleric's level.Clerics who rebuke undead may expend one of their Rebuke Undead attempts for the day, to grant up to two undead creatures per cleric level a +2 bonus on Will saving throws against turning or rebuking for 1 minute (10 rounds); this replaces the standard method of bolstering undead.  The cleric chooses which undead to affect in this manner.  The save bonus does not stack with itself.  However, the save bonus increases by +2 per 5 cleric levels.The dispel turning action can still be used, but simply functions like the aforementioned bolster undead action, except as follows.  Instead of gaining a bonus on Will saves, the affected undead are allowed a new Will save against the previous turning or rebuking effect upon them.[/sblock]4th Variant: Simple Paralysis/Destruction/Control Version[sblock]Turn/Rebuke Undead (Su): As a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, you may activate this supernatural ability targeting all undead creatures within a 60-foot emanation.  You must present your holy symbol or unholy symbol boldly towards the undead, held forth in one hand.  Bright light shines forth when turning undead, or brief rays of darkness pulse outward when rebuking undead.  Any undead to be affected must be within your line of sight.  You may turn undead if you are a paladin with the Turn Undead ability, or if you are a cleric who casts spontaneous Cure spells.  You may rebuke undead if you are a cleric who casts spontaneous Inflict spells.  Certain other classes may also possess one ability or the other.  The effects of turning or rebuking undead are instantaneous, except where mentioned otherwise.To turn undead, you must make a Charisma check.  Add your cleric level to this check as a sacred bonus.  The result is the total number of hit dice worth of undead you may affect.  The closest undead are affected first.  Affected undead must succeed at a Will saving throw or be effectively paralyzed and unable to act, by the power of positive energy, for 5 rounds.  Affected undead fall prone if paralyzed thusly.  The Will save DC is equal to 5 + your cleric level.  Undead with Turn Resistance add its modifier to their effective number of hit dice when determining if they may be turned, and the modifier is added to their Will save as well.  Any undead creature who fails the saving throw by 10 or more points, or who fails the save and has no more than half as many hit dice as you have cleric levels, is destroyed instead of paralyzed.  All physical remains of the undead creature are obliterated in this case, leaving no trace.Rebuking undead is handled in the same manner, with the following differences.  The extra bonus on your Charisma check is profane rather than sacred.  Undead who are paralyzed by rebuking are only affected so for 3 rounds, rather than 5 rounds.  Undead who would be destroyed are instead brought under your command.  Undead who are brought under your command in this manner are controlled in the same manner as in the core rules.If you have the ability to rebuke undead, you may use this ability to bolster them instead when desired.  You determine how many undead are affected, and which ones, in the same manner.  However, instead of them receiving saving throws against the bolstering, they simply gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against further rebuking and turning attempts for 10 rounds.If you have the ability to rebuke undead, you may use this ability to dispel paralysis on undead when desired, instead of rebuking them normally.  This only affects paralysis from earlier turning and rebuking attempts.  You determine how many undead are affected, and which ones, in the same manner.  Instead of the undead receiving saving throws against your ability this time, however, the individual who turned or rebuked them previously makes a new check to oppose your own.  If their new check fails to equal or exceed your own, then the undead you affected with this rebuking attempt are no longer paralyzed.[/sblock]</blockquote>

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