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Message: <blockquote data-quote="gamerprinter" data-source="post: 5218767" data-attributes="member: 50895">Not being a 4e player, but having some knowledge of the 4e system, you can take this advice with a grain of salt. I say, scratch the whole number of successes vs. number of failure mechanics altogether - at least not until the DM knows what the PCs plan to do in order to attempt a skill challenge. If you predetermine 4 successes over 2 failures challenge 4/2 before a challenge begins, any number of odds anamolies appear. You can get four successes and yet not have successfully defeated the challenge yet, you could get 2 failures and not even begin to negotiate the challenge. The entire mechanic seems to be a failure. I would as a DM describe the challenge itself. Then ask the players what they plan to do to successfully overcome the challenge - it would be at this point only that the DM would ad-hoc what the challenge rating becomes based on how the players plan to accomplish the task. Or I would alter what the challenge requires based on actions and successes already achieved. You can't truly determine a challenge rating without knowing what the players plan to do to succeed. So leave the challenge rating a ?, until the PCs tell you how they want to overcome it - ad hoc a rating and go from there. To better show the anamolous effects of a skill challenge here's a sample to describe what I'm saying: the party wants to enter a keep. There are two guards at the front door. If the challenge to get in is a 4/2 challenge, that means it takes four successes to get in. If the PCs decide they want to check the architecture for a possible secret entrance, they make a roll. If they fail the roll, this is one failure. Let's say the next option is to climb the walls to get in, but they need to sneak up to the tower first, so the party sends a rogue to distract the guards. If the rogues fails to distract them, that's two failures now they can't possibly get in. If the party does an Info Gathering attempt in the local tavern to find out if there's a secret entrance in and succeed on the roll - that's one success. Let's say the party then tries to gain some info on one of the guards guarding the tower in order to blackmail into letting you inside the tower - if you're info gathering attempt succeeds - that's two successes. Now the party attempts to sneak up to the tower in order to attempt to climb the walls, and roll - if they succeed, that's three successes. Now let's say the rogue is trying to distract the guards with the insider info they got on him in the tavern, and if that succeeds - that's four successes. Yet the party has even attempted to climb the walls, they have four successes, and have yet to pass the challenge.By coming up with a rating ahead time, such anamolies can occur. By leaving the rating undescribed, you need to find out what the party is planning, then and only then can you determine what a skill challenge rating should be - this many checks and this many failures. Doing it otherwise is ludricrous. GP</blockquote>

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