Alternative Turn Undead

[GoodKingJayIII]

This rule below is for clerics that channel positive energy.

1. The Cleric make a caster level check with a bonus/penalty equal to his Charisma modifier
2. The DC = 10 + 1/2 Undead's HD + Undead Charisma modifier. The caster level check in step one is rolled once and measured against the DCs of each individual undead creature in the encounter (if you're looking for a number, within a 50' radius)
3. If the cleric beats a particular Undead's DC, that undead creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and saving throws. The lowest HD undead are affected first, followed by the next lowest, and so forth. A cleric can only affect a number of undead HD equal to his level plus his Charisma modifier (positive or negative).

If the cleric channels negative energy:

Steps 1 and 2 are the same.
3. The cleric may command a number of undead HD equal to his level plus Charisma modifier (positive or negative). The undead with the lowest total HD are affected first, followed by the next lowest, etc. etc.
4. After the first round, undead under a cleric's command get a Will save equal 10 + 1/2 cleric's level + Charisma modifier. Each round after the second, they gain a cumulative +1 bonus to the save.


I realize that step two can cause some problems, measuring against multiple DCs if you're running encounters with many types of undead. Definitely a flaw I considered. An easy solution is to measure the cleric's caster level check against the DC of the highest HD creature(s) in the encounter. If he succeeds, follow to step 3 normally. If he fails, he fails outright and may not "rebuke" or command any of the undead in the encounter. This reflects a stronger undead presence able to bolster and direct the lesser undead in the group.

The goal of these rules is to create a streamlined set of steps that a) eliminates some of the confusion in the current turn/rebuke rules, b) brings the system of turning/rebuking in line with some more common tenets set up by the 3.5 rules system, and c) eliminate turning as a "be all, end all" move for an encounter. I'm sure alternative rules like these have come up before. There are probably much better versions out there. But this is something I want to play with, and I figured I'd post the idea in the hopes that you'll critique it for better clarity and simplicity of execution. I'm trying to speed up the rules, eliminate the need for a a book reference every time a cleric wants to turn (IME, the RAW turning rules are the most complicated next to the grapple rules). So if this house rule actually makes it harder, that's bad.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

 

[airwalkrr]

This is the kind of rule that would be great for a computer game and not so great for a tabletop game. Not that the turning rules as written are great for a tabletop game of course (being as complicated as they are).

But seriously, I think keeping track of which undead are fleeing is much simpler than tracking yet ANOTHER variety of penalty. There are already so frickin' many in the game my head just about explodes.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

There was a varient turning rule in the Complete divine that simplifies it to just plain damage. While the regular turning rules are great at levels 1-5, where undead are easily killed or turned, after that, turning just gets that much harder. (Undead generally have a lot of HD and turn resistance doesn't make it any easier)

Granted the undead-fear thing is classic, but sometimes the party complains when the cleric just sits there and tries to turn undead every round to no avail. And even if he does, oh no, they run away. The players still have to kill it. After a while, the turning bonuses against undead are pointless. +2? Hah A CR 20 undead has 30-40+ AC.

Doesn't matter much though, because clerics could just plain cast Heal on the undead instead.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

This is the kind of rule that would be great for a computer game and not so great for a tabletop game.

Why? As I said, if you have a problem measuring against multiple DCs, just use the highest in the encounter. Just because a rule is meant to be more streamlined doesn't mean it's better suited for tabletop or electronic. But I'd like to hear your reasoning.

But seriously, I think keeping track of which undead are fleeing is much simpler than tracking yet ANOTHER variety of penalty. There are already so frickin' many in the game my head just about explodes.

Well, I certainly can't argue with that. I'll reconsider doing something other than a penalty, but frankly I think turning makes undead encounters too easy.

There was a varient turning rule in the Complete divine that simplifies it to just plain damage. While the regular turning rules are great at levels 1-5, where undead are easily killed or turned, after that, turning just gets that much harder. (Undead generally have a lot of HD and turn resistance doesn't make it any easier)

I knew Complete Divine had alternative rules, but I'd never read them. Sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I want clerics dealing AOE damage to undead. I wanted to make the encounters more deadly by treating the encounter as if the undead could not be turned. The rebuke is a nice little benefit but still makes the undead a threat.

Also, I hadn't considered turn resistance in this rule. I think this rule could actually do away with resistance, which to me is a silly balancing factor. (Giving clerics an uber ability against undead and then completely denying its use). It would really depend on how it playtested.

 

[Sadrik]

I like your rule!

Because it is almost exactly like mine!

I do a 30' cone it effects the closest first and then goes out.

My equation is: 10 + CR + turn resistance + CHA or WIS (whichever is higher)

But I also use a divine CL check. I give them the shakened condition if they fail. Sun domain gives them the frightened condition.