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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Yair" data-source="post: 1186223" data-attributes="member: 10913">I don't follow.A 20 HD Collossal creature made into a skeleton, by 3.5 rules, will have a CR of 8 and Will +12. At CR 8, he is a likely opponent for a level 8 cleric. If he meets this cleric, he will have to make a Will save of DC 19, with a +12 to the roll. That means he needs 7+ to resist, so he has 30% chance to fail the check. Not perfect, which I'd consider 50%, but then again using the original system an 8th level cleric could have only turned a 12 HD skeleton at best, very likely no more than 8 HD - namely CR 4, possibly CR 6. In other words, the ability to turn undead skeletons is useless under the core rules except for skeleteons that pose no significant threat to the cleric, except in large numbers. If he is facing an undead skeleton which is a difficult challenge on its own (perhaps a leader), he cannot turn it.Using the suggested alternative, the cleric has a good chance of turning the skeleton that matches his CR. Indeed, he has a 30% chance to turn a 20 HD (CR 8) skeleton. That seems to make more sense, although I agree the save seems slightly too hard (but a 20 HD skeleton isn't your garden variety skeleton).If you take a Bodak (CR 8), with a Will +7, he needs 12+ to save so there is a 55% he will be turned. Things are much the same for other, more traditional, CR 8 undead. But a Devourer (CR 11) has Will +11, so he needs only 8+ to save, and the cleric has only a 35% to turn it. A Nightwing (CR 14) has Will +17; the cleric has a measly 10% to turn it. A Nightwalker (CR 16, Will +19) is completely beyond his power.Clearly, the cleric now has a reasonable chance of turning creatures that actually pose a difficulty to him. Of course, this may not always work. A vampire 6th level cleric (CR 8) with Wis 20 (reasonable, with the vampire's +2), has Will +10, so there is a 40% to turn it. 20% if you count the +4 turn resistance. But a 5th level fighter with Wis 10 (CR 8 too) will have only a measly Will +2, which means a 80% chance to turn it (60% with turn resistance).</blockquote>

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