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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Grayhawk" data-source="post: 1192910" data-attributes="member: 11288">I don't think a general consensus have been reached. Some prefer the undead to make a will save - me, I want to put the check in the hands of the cleric's player.Also, I think that before you (or anyone) can decide on a mechanic, you'll have to figure out what you want from the change.It seems that many here are attracted to a more 'balanced' way of turning - 'balanced' in this case meaning the cleric should be able to turn undead of his own CR about 50% of the time. As some undead have much higher HD than CR this is impossible by the core rules.While I think that that's a worthwhile goal, I'm mostly into finding a simpler, more elegant method that I can use on the fly, by only using the cleric's and the undead's stats.I'm also looking for a way of doing it with just one roll.And while some seem to be in favor of only linking the turning to will save, I don't mind the HD having an influence as well (as some of the previously un-turnable (due to high HD) undead suddenly become very easy to turn).Where you stand on this is possibly a matter of flavor and personal preference:A Gray Render Zombie has a CR of 6 but 20 HD (and a will save of +12) - how easy do you feel it should be to turn it?I seldom use CR myself, but I guess that making it possible to turn a GRZ by someone less than 16th level (the current lowest possible) should affect it's CR?Honestly, while looking at this from several angles I'm afraid that it creates more problems than it solves. That said, here are my current ideas:The turning's AoE is a 30 feet cone.(To restrict the possible number of  affected undead.)The maximum HD affected are cleric's level + his cha bonus.(Because cha should be in there somewhere, and because I believe it adequately mimics 3.x and earlier editions way of having the maximum HD affected being cleric's level +4.The cleric makes a level check (d20 + cleric level) vs a DC of 11 + undead's will save. All undead who's DC are beat are turned.(Because it's more fun for the player himself to make the roll that determines the outcome of his action. Letting it only be only one roll fastens the pace.)The biggest problem I see with this method, is that the high HD undead are still being hard or impossible to turn, especially with a low cha score... (not that it bothers me a whole lot, as I think the system works OK in most instances. Having a simple system that only 'breaks down' at the extreme ends of the range (like with the GRZ) but works with most basic encounters is preferable to me, compared to a clunky system that works all the time).I'll be glad if someone can point out any faults with my system and maybe even offer a workable solution, especially one that incorporates the concepts above (putting a single roll in the hands of the cleric, etc).</blockquote>

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