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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrankTrollman" data-source="post: 1196727" data-attributes="member: 14225">Remember that a CR 20 Undead creature is usually going to have a Will Save between +17 and +25 because it has 32 or more hit dice.Using 3.r stuff whenever possible, here's the pre-packaged Undead (using total Hit Dice + Turn Resistance):Creature CR/Hit Dice/Will SaveAbyssal Ghoul 10/16/+12Allip 3/6/+4Banshee 17/26/+19Bhut 9/8/+5Blood Fiend 14/18/+13Bodak 8/9/+7Bone Naga 11/15/+11Corpse Gatherer 19/30/+17Crawling Head 20/28/+20Crimson Death 11/13/+10Deathbringer 17/30/+19Devourer 11/12/+11Effigy 17/27/+20Famine Spirit 19/32/+20Ghast 3/6/+6Ghoul 1/4/+5Gravecrawler 16/31/+16Hullathoin 15/16/+13Jahi 16/25/+18Mohrg 8/14/+9Mummy 5/8/+8Nightcrawler 18/25/+23Nightwalker 16/21/+19Nightwing 14/17/+17Quth-Maren 7/12/+9Ragewind 19/31/+18Shadow 3/5/+4Skeleton (Wolf) 1/2/+3Skeleton (Owlbear) 2/5/+4Skeleton (Troll) 3/6/+5Skeleton (Chimerae) 4/9/+6Skeleton (Ettin) 5/10/+7Spawn of Kyuss 5/6/+4Spectre 7/9/+7Ulgarstasta 11/17/+13Vampire Spawn 4/6/+5Wight 3/4/+5Wraith 5/7/+6Wraith (Dread) 11/16/+14Zombie (Troglodyte) 1/4/+4Zombie (Bugbear) 2/6/+5Zombie (Ogre) 3/8/+6Zombie (Minotaur) 4/12/+8Zombie (Gray Render) 6/20/+12OK, what do we notice?First, we notice that effective hit dice doesn't have a damn thing to do with CR, while Will save rises almost equally with CR.The discrepency here is that the largest difference between CR and Hit Dice is fifteen (The Grave Crawler), and the largest difference between CR and Will Save is the seemingly unkillable (and possibly misprinted) Zombie Gray Render at a mere 6 off.The other thing we notice is that amongst non-epic creatures, there are only two anywhere which have more than 10 hit dice and turn resistance of any kind (the Grave Crawler and the Blood Fiend). Turn Resistance seems to be put in there as a grudge device to keep PCs from destroying undead with turning attempts. That being said - I believe that if we are suggesting simplifying turning attempts, we are also dropping the concept of Turn Resistance. A creature who in the previous system had turn resistance gets absolutely nothing in the new system.So what kind of odds are you looking for?If it's set to Will Saves - the average Undead Will Save is equal to its CR. So if you set the base Save DC as X + Character Level, an undead creature will be turned by a cleric of its level on X numbers out of twenty.So if the Turn DC is 8 + Character Level, a Cleric will be turning Undead of her level approximately 40% of the time. If the Turn DC is 15 + Character Level, a Cleric will be turning Undead of her level approximately 75% of the time - and so on.I definately suggest not allowing Charisma modifiers to directly impact Save DCs, as that doesn't scale properly. Similarly, giving synergy bonuses for skills or some crap like that would likewise undermine the process.Having a Charisma based Turning Check, which augmented the base save DC like the current turning check would be fine.And of course, now that each creature is making their own save - the whole concept of "maximum hit dice affected" should be dropped as well.-Frank</blockquote>

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