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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrankTrollman" data-source="post: 1200176" data-attributes="member: 14225">Here's what we are up against:* Monster Will Saves approximately equal CR.* Charisma Bonuses sometimes don't rise at all, and in some cases can rise by as much as +6 within a single level.* Character Level rises exactly equally with the CR of the creatures you are supposed to fight.---While I am fine with a character who puts in a concerted effort to raise his Charisma gaining a benefit from doing so with respect to turning - there is absolutely no way that I would agree that such a character should gain the equivalent of twelve character levels vs. another character who did not.I mean, if we are comfortable with a level 20 Cleric successfully destroying a Nightwing (and I think we are), then the potential would exist fo an 8th level character doing the same thing if Charisma bonus counts double compared to level. That's simply not acceptable.---There is another problem, of course: using powers where you don't roll any dice is kind of boring. And of course, killing creatures with powers where they didn't get to roll any dice is frustrating.On the bright side, however, a "turning check" followed by a Will save could prevent both problems.---First the Cleric makes a Charisma Check - the higher he gets, the larger a bonus he gets to his DC (perhaps, 10 +1 for every 4 past 8 on the test - no limit). This keeps Charisma in the game without allowing it to dominate everything or push characters into the ability to vastly outstrip their character level in turning ability just because they have the Fire Domain. It also makes the Cleric player feel like he's participating in the action because he gets to actually roll dice.Then the Undead make a save against the modified Cleric Level + Turning Result. Failure by more than 8 would result in destruction/commanding.So the turning test would look like this:Result / Base DC0- /  71-4 / 85-8 / 99-12 / 1013-16 / 1117-20 / 1221-24 / 1325-28 / 14etc.OK, now Charisma is in the running, and it is balanced by level and has a more unified mechanic with the rest of the rules.The turning check is still crazy, but at least it looks kind of like the jump test.-Frank</blockquote>

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