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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrankTrollman" data-source="post: 1202566" data-attributes="member: 14225">Attributes have a table as well, when was the last time you referenced it? So long as the table is periodic and predictive, people won't need to look at it, so the disadvantages of having a unique table do not exist.The problem with the current turning check table is that it does not follow a rule - it's just some arbitrary numbers - so people have to look it up every time. A "table" which was simply a mathematical rule would not have this problem.Let's say you are a Cleric with the Fire Domain - you can control Efreet. Grab 2 of them (with the right set-up this can be done at 9th level, but we'll assume you are more like 15th) - now force them to give you six wishes. Wish for +5 Charisma and a +6 Cloak of Charisma. Your Charisma now goes directly from 15 (a +2 bonus) to 26 (a +8 bonus) with a single event.Needless to say, your Charisma could rise much faster than that with the use of armor of command, prestige classes, exercising levelling bonuses into charisma, and so on and so forth.That's just a different table. Anytime you have any mathematical formulae it is inherently expressable in tabular form.There is a reason I suggest 8 instead of 10. It's because we are already ramping down the power of Turn Undead by alot. Making the destruction modiifer an 8 gives 1st level Clerics a chance of destroying their undead foes - thus giving them a small advantage after we are kicking them in the crotch so very hard.I don't know how much you've used Turn Undead, but despite it having a really weird mechanic (or perhaps because of that fact), Sun Clerics tend to kill just about every Undead creature they ever meet - at every level. Consider: at 1st level a "very hard" challenge is 12 Skeletons - that's supposed to be a group to nealry wipe out the entire party. And yet, the Cleric uses one turning attempt (using the awesome power of the Sun Domain) and he rolls a d20. Since he has a Charisma of 14 or so, he only needs to roll an 8 to successfully destroy skeletons - and when he does so he will destroy 2d6+3 skeletons (average 10). So the Cleric destroys an average of 6.5 skeletons per application - and he can do this 5 times a day (after which he will be be down to his 9 normal turning attempts). And if the Cleric involved is 2nd level, he destroys even more skeletons, only needs to roll a 5 on the d20 - and doesn't even need the Sun Domain to do it.In short, at low levels, "difficult" encounters with undead are reduced to slag in short order. At high levels, characters tend to collect amulets of turning and such like - and don't even have a small chance of failure against most supposedly difficult encounters.So what kind of math are we looking at for this method? Well, the 2nd level Cleric is having a DC of about 12, the Skeletons have a Will Save of about +2. So while in the old system he'd have an 80% chance of destroying all but one of the Skeletons - now they each have a 50% chance of having to run away (55% if we add half the Charisma Modifier).So by the averages, where before our second level Cleric destroyed 8.8 skeletons per application - now he's going to Turn only 6 of them - a massive reduction in power. If the Skeletons are destroyed if they fail by 8 or more - then at least 1 of the skeletons might be destroyed.There are also lots of other good reasons for not using BAB and if people are still seriously looking at it I'll enumerate some of them (hint: think about multiclassing into Sacred Exorcist).No it doesn't. It's an erratic, and largely logarythmic progression. At the low levels it's often CR*2, but at the bottom it's CR*3 or CR*4. At the top it's mostly about CR*1.5Hit Dice progress faster than CR does - but the rate at which they progress goes down as their CR goes up. In short: it's all screwed up and pretending that Hit Dice means a damn thing is counterproductive.Making it a Save against every single Undead creature within range is less powerful than the Turning Check + Hit Dice Effected mechanic already in place. It allows people to still feel useful without having to invest in Amulets of Turning and Armor of Turning and crap - but it is on the whole less powerful than the original mechanic.Why on Earth would we go and reduce the range as well? Do we really hate Clerics that much?-Frank</blockquote>

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