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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Yair" data-source="post: 1206088" data-attributes="member: 10913">Now now, hold your horses. I agree that you are right that this system does not scale well. But Nail is absolutely right in the points he makes, too - turning should be as simple and "d20ish" as possible. Now, if only I could find a middle ground...We essentially started with the cleric making a level check, opposed by the undead's will check. That seems to be the most balanced way to go about it.The problem now lies in that this does not bring the cleric's Cha to bear. I've suggested adding 1/2 Cha modifier, but this was rejected for being non-standard. Yet I feel that adding + Cha modifier is too high, and making yet another Cha check combersome and complicated. So I'm at a loss here.If you insist on a Cha check, I suggest increasing the bonus every +2 or +5; other multipliers are difficult to calculate effortlessly.As for 1d20+1/2 clr level + cha modifier, I for one was convinced by FrankTrollman that it just doesn't work well. While I like the idea of making something so much like a Su ability, the math just doesn't add up, and the immense effect of Cha over level is just not what I want to achieve. I am not at all convinced that this mechanic is weaker; on the contrary. This mechanic allows the cleric to turn foes of CR he would not be able to turn under the old system. (That's good - he should be able to turn foes of his own CR!). Not being able to turn/destroy as many weak foes under the new rules is does not compensate for this in my opinion.The old "turning damage" mechanic was inherently weaker, allowing the cleric to turn only a small amount of foes. (Yes, maybe he could turn lots of 1 HD skeletons, but that's not the paradigmatic case.) If we leave the area at 60', the effect of the turning can be very large since even though only a fraction are turned there is no cap to their number other than the space they occupy.Also, having no cap other than area means that if confronted by powerful foes the cleric could now turn them all in one fell swoop of his holy symbol. I think under these mechanics, facing a foe at CR=Level + 4 the cleric will have something like 30% of turning it. By itself, this isn't that bad. But now add the fact that when sorounded by 100 such creatures the cleric will turn 30 of them, and this is WAAAY too powerful (yes, I know the cleric will die the next round - its still too damn powerful).Limiting the range to a 30' cone at least allows the DM some measure of control in the affect the cleric has on the BBEU (Big Bad Evil Undead), if he can manuevere them right. The ability is still potentially too powerful, but less so, and in practice it will be more rarely felt.(BTW, as for actually destroying them - this is an aspect of the Sun domain, rather than the actual turning mechanics, and is not pertinent to our current discussion.)</blockquote>

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