Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 7310759" data-attributes="member: 59848">Here's my counter point. As a non-Moon Druid, you can turn into a black bear at level 4, but that creature has a strength of 15. That a +2 bonus. Assuming you completely dump strength as a non-Moon Druid, that is only a difference of 2-3 in your strength modifier. But then, why are you using a Wild Shape form for strength? As I state in my original thread, I do not believe the intent of Wild Shape is to replace physical stats to make them higher for a druid character, but to aid in the Exploration/Stealth phase of the game. Even if you want that higher strength, you can't Wild Shape into a Brown Bear (Str 19) until level 8 at the earliest. By that time, if you need to physically move an obstacle out of the way, you also have access to spells such as Call Lightning to destroy the obstacle, Conjure Animals to call a creature of CR 2 to help you move the obstacle (twice as strong as a Brown Bear), Polymorph, and Stone Shape. So for what purpose would you need a higher strength? As for being as graceful as a cat, you would not get the benefit of being an acrobatic cat... no. But you could certainly sneak around with their advantage on stealth checks. Druids can assume these shapes, but should we believe that druids would be as competent or able in these shapes as the creatures they are emulating? Once again, what purpose would having "the grace of a cat" serve that could not be emulated by my adjustment, with spells available to the druid, or with other party members that might be more inclined for that role? Is Wild Shape meant to allow the druid to step seamlessly and competently into every role? I don't believe so.I would argue that the non-Moon Druid is not meant to use their Wild Shape forms for Strength or Dexterity. With your example of being a rat with high strength, you are still a tiny creature. That limits your strength a great deal. With a strength of 8 you are still only able to lift a quarter of what a medium sized creature could at that same strength score. Is that a lot for a rat? Sure. But once again, in what scenario would that matter or break the game? Also, consider that a cat and a spider are both considered tiny creatures. A cat has a strength score of 3, and the spider has a 2. Per the PHB, a cat can carry almost 12 pounds, and a spider can carry almost 8 pounds! Not only that, but that's just carry weight! For push, they can both double that! A spider is able to push around 16 pounds if it wants. Based on this, are the numbers provided for these stat blocks really representative of our expectations for what these creatures can do compared to their real life counterparts?As for Moon Druids, their Wild Shape is once again not meant to be a substitute for poor physical stats, but as a way to allow for competent front line fighting. Substituting Wisdom to modify attack and damage rolls makes up for their lack of strength, as well as a cantrip-like natural attack to keep up with classes that gain additional attacks. For what purpose would they need strength? And once again, if it comes down to moving an obstacle, they still have spells that can assist with that.I look at what problem is Wild Shape trying to solve. I don't believe Wild Shape is to allow Druids to have good physical AND mental stats. No class should have such an advantage. But I do believe Wild Shape is meant to aid with exploration/stealth, and with combat for Moon Druids. My adjustments maintain the spirit of addressing those problems without the complication of taking on entirely different stats or having to choose from multiple different options to maximize the outcome. And if the ability scores still concern you, then add the Enhance Ability spell to the Druid Spell list.</blockquote>

Verification