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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 7585488" data-attributes="member: 59848">[MENTION=6861845]Captain Panda[/MENTION] - I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your second post. I could tell that your first post seemed to be a knee jerk reaction to my proposed changes, which is fine. I did not mean for my post to come off as mean or anything (though I certainly can see that it could be taken that way), but I had a hard time with feedback that is largely reactionary or opinionated, since it speaks more to our personal tastes rather than the merits of the content. So thank you for coming back to the table to discuss your views on my proposed changes. We may not agree on whether this would be worth implementing at our game tables, but I'm glad we can remain respectful towards one another.I'm certainly not trying to take anyone's toys away! ^_^ This is a problem that I've had with the druid since 3e. I just don't think CR is a good measure of balance for player abilities, nor do I think it appropriate that wildshape then turns the Monster Manual into a player resource. I think the Monster Manual should strictly be a DM resource. Of course, just because I view this as a problem, does not mean it is actually a problem. I certainly don't think that Wildshape, or Moon Druids are broken or break the game. But the WotC version of Wildshape is just not for me.Sure, this may be a feature and not a bug. But it also comes with its own negatives. A lower AC does not just put a druid in general and moon druid in particular in danger of hit point loss. But it also makes them more vulnerable to any kind of effect that is based on attacks. That means they may be saving more often against conditions such as stunning strike, poison, grapples, and many other things that come up more often in higher level play. And having to make more saves means failing more saves. Additionally, since a wildshape has its own HP pool, it makes a druid vulnerable to things such as disintegrate, which would kill a wildshaped druid even if they would normally still have hit points remaining in their normal form.Additionally, since Moon Druids typically can't cast spells while Wild Shaped, they still benefit from using a bonus action to heal themselves with their spell slots, continuing to give them access to as many hit points as they might need.So there are some trade-offs. But my version also solves another problem of the druid's wildshape. At higher levels, more powerful beast shapes are usually on the small end large, and often huge. This limits their utility since you need enough space to effectively use such shapes and benefit from their increased power. Being a high level Moon Druid does not give you a way to make more basic or lower CR beast forms more powerful. If someone likes the wolf and wants to use one at higher levels, they would either have to use a sub-optimal beast form, hope there are appropriate, higher powerful wolves available, homebrew these beast forms, or attempt to reskin more powerful forms that may not exactly replicate the base wolf. My version of Wildshape allows greater thematic use of Wildshape since the specific look of the form is not tied to a pre-generated beast stat-block, and all options increase in power relative to your druid level.I don't know if it changes the feel. You can describe any attack as multiple attacks. And yes, using a cantrip as the basis of the attack was intentional. It is more powerful, of course, since you can add your wisdom modifier to the damage. But again, since Druids, even Moon Druids, are full casters, I don't think it's appropriate to make them both tank-like with HP/AC and damage output. Additionally, yes. My version does not account for things like Multiattack, Pack Tactics, Pounce, Stomp, Charge, or other abilities. But that is because these abilities are difficult to standardize against one another, and one of my goals was to standardize wildshape. With effective standardization, you remove the need to always optimize your beast form choice. Within a given CR, there are clear choices that offer the most power. But if CR is meant to represent the general power offered by creatures of a given CR, then any beast chosen should be just about as good as any other. Adding abilities into the mix such as Pack Tactics, Multiattack, Grab, ect increase the complexity of Wildshape. Perhaps there might be a way to incorporate such things into my version, but I am unsure how to do that without significantly increasing complexity.Sure. But look at those options. They are at least large sized, and the most powerful ones are huge. That can put severe limits on what you can do if you choose those shapes. You can't wildshape into an elephant or mammoth in a small dungeon or an inn. You need specific battlefield conditions to really utilize those forms effectively. And if there is not enough room to wildshape into something large or huge sized, then you are forced to take supoptimal forms that deal less damage. Because from what I can see, the higher the CR of a beast, the bigger it is. You don't have small or medium beasts that are also higher in CR. So yes, while my version does nerf the damage output a bit, it also increases your flexibility in benefiting from your full power potential even in smaller, enclosed spaces.  I see these as being relatively equal, but player preferences vary.Yes, this is certainly one of the drawbacks in my version compared with the original version of Wildshape. But in a system that prefers simplicity to complexity, and the ability to standardize the power and balance of Wildshape forms, unfortunately that means some things may be lost. For me, this is still an ok sacrifice to make. It makes the combat options of the Moon Druid less interesting. But some of these things can effectively come online once a druid can cast spells in wildshape. It's not perfect, but for my purpose and tastes, it's "good enough." Though I am open to suggestions that can maintain the streamlined feel of my wildshape option, while also allowing some of those unique beast abilities. Average damage of an elephant is (3 x 5.5) + 6 = 22.5. Average attack of my version of a level 12 moon druid is (3 x 4.5) + 5 = 18.5. An average difference of 4 damage per round is significant, but it evens out knowing you can use a moon druid anywhere a medium creature can fight, where the elephant needs a space able to accommodate its huge size. But how do you get 4d6 + 60 damage a round? Assuming a longbow and the archery fighting style, at level 12 you will do 3d8 + 15 damage per round. Using Sharpshooter will increase that to 3d8 + 45 damage, but you are going to hit less often, especially against high AC targets. Of course, a fighter also has Action Surge, but that is not being used every round. How did you come up with your figure? Additionally, a ranged fighter is not a reasonable comparison for a moon druid, as they will be engaged in melee. So a melee fighter would be a more apt point of comparison anyways. If you feel that strongly about the HP, you can certainly remove the unarmored defense and increase the temp hp. But once again, the original wildshape requires increasing complexity. My system doesn't require a druid to assume their armor gets absorbed and becomes inert, nor do they have to frequently change their physical stats arbitrarily. They continue to benefit from hard earned mundane and magic items.Sure, but I think hit points are already bloated even for non-druids. Being big bags of hit points is not fun at my table, so I'm ok with this not being part of the game. YMMVMy version of wildshape, I believe, has a duration equal to that of the normal version. Additionally, the player has more flexibility in the types of damage they deal, and do not get limited by being in enclosed spaces at higher levels. I think it about evens out. The only issue I see is with the lack of combat options like Grab, Knock Down, ect.Moon Druids can still cast while wildshaped, but they are just limited to self-heals. The risk with allowing spellcasting with combat wildshape is that now you have a frontline melee druid with full access to casting. For any gish type class, I think there has to be a trade-off. Druids can still concentrate on spells they cast before going into wildshaped. And since a moon druid wildshapes as a bonus action, they are likely casting a favorable spell with a duration before going into wildshape.The players at my table always have the option of using my homebrew or original versions. I like my stuff better, obviously, but if a player will enjoy the core rules better, I won't take that away from them so long as it doesn't slow down the game (which I think Wildshape often does).</blockquote>

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