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Alternatives to the feat-tax solution to to-hit and F/R/W defenses
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<blockquote data-quote="Elric" data-source="post: 4780045" data-attributes="member: 1139"><p>Monsters in the MM tend to be short on damage even compared to the recommended damage guidelines on page 184 in the DMG. I believe someone said that at levels 25+ it was on average 7 damage short of the DMG's recommendations for at-will damage.</p><p></p><p>Edit- looking through some MM epic monsters, they seem behind the DMG guidelines on at-will damage, but not 7 points behind. I haven't played at epic or near-epic levels, so I can't say that my suggestion (+8 damage eventually) is the result of experience in play. It's also not the product of close calculation for what's need to make the MM numbers in line with the DMG's suggestions. </p><p></p><p>The general idea is that if you look at well-constructed, though not especially optimized, high level PCs, if the PCs scaled equally well to monsters in the game's default numbers, the monsters in the MM wouldn't be enough of a threat. These fixes come very close to making up the entire gap- e.g., <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/253894-alternatives-feat-tax-solution-hit-f-r-w-defenses.html#post4759793" target="_blank">Karinsdad's</a> is -1 to hit, -1 FRW, -2 AC; <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/253894-alternatives-feat-tax-solution-hit-f-r-w-defenses.html#post4744649" target="_blank">my fix changes AC slightly</a> so it's -1 to-hit, FRW, and AC (and AC in the default rules, using AV/PH II MW armor, still falls behind monster to-hit by 3 for many levels, while in my fix it never falls behind by more than 1) . </p><p></p><p>Additionally, people report that fights become longer (indeed, too long) at higher levels, which provides a reason for wanting to fix the problem by making monsters more damaging, not by increasing their durability (increasing player to-hit by an eventual +3 should speed up combat a good deal as well). That said, the MM2 previews suggest that <strong>1)</strong>, monsters are getting nastier in general and <strong>2)</strong> Monsters are becoming comparatively stronger offensively than existing monsters (while becoming comparatively weaker defensively; e.g., the reduced HP on some of the solos).</p><p></p><p>To the extent that the PH-II feats and their substantial upgrade in character power become integrated into the designer's mindsets when creating further monsters, and to the extent that they've realized that monster offense relative to defense should go up, applying a one-size fits all solution to monsters across multiple published products may not work. This is a reason why WotC should have done the math correctly in the first place.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The basic math underlying this thread is:</p><p></p><p>Over 29 levels, from a starting level 1 character (with no magic items) to level 30:</p><p>To-hit, AC, and Fort/Reflex/Will gain +21 from levels/enhancement bonuses.</p><p></p><p>Assume you split your stat boosts to two stats that add to different FRW defenses. One of these stats is your primary attack stat. If you wear light armor, one of these stats boosts AC.</p><p></p><p>AC gains +6 more: either +6 from Masterwork Heavy Armor, or +2 from MW Light Armor and +4 from increases to an ability score which adds to AC.</p><p>To-hit and your two strong FRWs gain +4 more from Primary/Secondary Attribute advancement</p><p>Your one weak FRW gains +1 from the ability score boosts at levels 11/21.</p><p></p><p>So AC gains +27, to-hit and your two strong FRWs gain +25, and your weak FRW gains +22.</p><p></p><p>Over these 29 levels, monsters gain +29 to their to-hit and to all defenses. Compared to the monsters, players lose 2 on AC, players lose 4 on to-hit and their two strong FRWs, and lose 7 on their weak FRW.</p><p></p><p>These numbers don't take into account powers, Paragon paths, Epic destinies, or feats. This is just the raw effect of levels, stat increases, and enhancement bonuses of magic items.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elric, post: 4780045, member: 1139"] Monsters in the MM tend to be short on damage even compared to the recommended damage guidelines on page 184 in the DMG. I believe someone said that at levels 25+ it was on average 7 damage short of the DMG's recommendations for at-will damage. Edit- looking through some MM epic monsters, they seem behind the DMG guidelines on at-will damage, but not 7 points behind. I haven't played at epic or near-epic levels, so I can't say that my suggestion (+8 damage eventually) is the result of experience in play. It's also not the product of close calculation for what's need to make the MM numbers in line with the DMG's suggestions. The general idea is that if you look at well-constructed, though not especially optimized, high level PCs, if the PCs scaled equally well to monsters in the game's default numbers, the monsters in the MM wouldn't be enough of a threat. These fixes come very close to making up the entire gap- e.g., [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/253894-alternatives-feat-tax-solution-hit-f-r-w-defenses.html#post4759793]Karinsdad's[/url] is -1 to hit, -1 FRW, -2 AC; [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/253894-alternatives-feat-tax-solution-hit-f-r-w-defenses.html#post4744649]my fix changes AC slightly[/url] so it's -1 to-hit, FRW, and AC (and AC in the default rules, using AV/PH II MW armor, still falls behind monster to-hit by 3 for many levels, while in my fix it never falls behind by more than 1) . Additionally, people report that fights become longer (indeed, too long) at higher levels, which provides a reason for wanting to fix the problem by making monsters more damaging, not by increasing their durability (increasing player to-hit by an eventual +3 should speed up combat a good deal as well). That said, the MM2 previews suggest that [b]1)[/b], monsters are getting nastier in general and [b]2)[/b] Monsters are becoming comparatively stronger offensively than existing monsters (while becoming comparatively weaker defensively; e.g., the reduced HP on some of the solos). To the extent that the PH-II feats and their substantial upgrade in character power become integrated into the designer's mindsets when creating further monsters, and to the extent that they've realized that monster offense relative to defense should go up, applying a one-size fits all solution to monsters across multiple published products may not work. This is a reason why WotC should have done the math correctly in the first place. The basic math underlying this thread is: Over 29 levels, from a starting level 1 character (with no magic items) to level 30: To-hit, AC, and Fort/Reflex/Will gain +21 from levels/enhancement bonuses. Assume you split your stat boosts to two stats that add to different FRW defenses. One of these stats is your primary attack stat. If you wear light armor, one of these stats boosts AC. AC gains +6 more: either +6 from Masterwork Heavy Armor, or +2 from MW Light Armor and +4 from increases to an ability score which adds to AC. To-hit and your two strong FRWs gain +4 more from Primary/Secondary Attribute advancement Your one weak FRW gains +1 from the ability score boosts at levels 11/21. So AC gains +27, to-hit and your two strong FRWs gain +25, and your weak FRW gains +22. Over these 29 levels, monsters gain +29 to their to-hit and to all defenses. Compared to the monsters, players lose 2 on AC, players lose 4 on to-hit and their two strong FRWs, and lose 7 on their weak FRW. These numbers don't take into account powers, Paragon paths, Epic destinies, or feats. This is just the raw effect of levels, stat increases, and enhancement bonuses of magic items. [/QUOTE]
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