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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evildmguy" data-source="post: 5326769" data-attributes="member: 6092">It's been touched on but it's important so I am going to repeat it.The entire O/G/A system is based on rolling low.  It's a skill based system, using the ability score + rank in the skill to come up with the ordinary success target number.  Further, the average ability score is seven for average people, but ten for the heroes, the PCs.  So, my examples in response to LightPhoenix did not get more specific because I made the assumption everyone understands the differences between a class based and skill based system.  In a skill based system, as was said, the result needed is usually known before hand.  In White Wolf games, again one success from the die pool is a success with more being a better success.  The game mechanics reflect this.  That's what Alternity is doing, but it's more that the lower your result (of d20 and the modifier) is better.  Again, you probably knew this but it's important.  In DND, my saying that rolling d20 + 10 doesn't mean anything without knowing more holds true at any level.  In 4E, it's probably easy to make the target number in the heroic tier, tough in (lower) paragon tier and impossible at the epic tier.  Without any other information, though, or understanding of those points, the example holds.  The player knows they have to roll high, they can figured out 30 is the best they can do but still don't know how easy or hard it will be for their character to succeed.  In Alternity, the player knows what they need.  As was said, it's figured out and on their character sheet.  However, regardless of that, I think "common sense" comes into play with regards to math.  If I say roll low and explain one is the best number to roll, which is part of the system and my assumption the player knew that much, when I hand the player a d20 and a d12 and tell them to roll both and add them together, whatever his target number is, they know it's going to be tough.  My assumption is that the player is looking at their range, seeing what they are rolling, and this is helping them realize what they want to do is tough.  At the point where they realize it's going to be tough, they can start asking questions about how to gain a bonus or reduce any penalties, for any system.  Again, though, if they get a +4 or +8 in d20, what does that mean?  They still don't know how much easier they have made the task.  In Alternity, though, if they have changed it from a +d12 to a +d4, or less, they know they have made the task easier, regardless of anything else.  That's all I was trying to say with the numbers.  And this is hardly unique to Alternity.  Again, White Wolf's system would have the same thing, where the more dice you put into your pool to roll, the higher the chance of getting a success.  I have no idea how you would do this in DND and I have tried!  In terms of having a range of successes instead of just pass or fail.  LP, Can you give me an example of how you could do this while rolling high?  What I like about skill based systems though, is that they can show a difference between experienced and green characters.  In DND, assuming the player now understands levels, they know that if they are about five levels higher, they are going to win, even if they make a mistake.  Then, they have to be more and more careful as the levels are closer.  In a skill system, that novice might still get a lucky shot.  With guns, really any weapon but especially guns which were created for this case, that makes sense.  They are meant to be easy to use and an equalizer.  (In contrast to a sword or bowman who needs skill to use those weapons.)  For Alternity, this is rank benefits and it gives the experienced character more options but still makes the green opponent scary at all times.  (I read somewhere that many think 1E had that, mainly because armor class didn't get as low as it could later.  Not sure if I buy that but it was very interesting.)  While it is true that only the modifiers change in Alternity, the big difference is that the character has more control over most of those modifiers, more so than in DND.  I don't have time to get into why I think that's the case.  Further, I'm not sure how LP can say an upper limit isn't relevant.  If I am rolling a d20, i.e. the highest I can get is 20, and I have an 11 ability score and 9 ranks, then the player is often wondering why they need to roll!  That never happens in DND with numbers getting higher by level.  Where skill based systems don't do well, though, is give a player a sense of accomplishment or improvement in their character.  Getting a lot of things at a level really does that much better.  And it's amazing how much I have found that works and comes into play!  Good discussion!  Thanks!</blockquote>

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