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<blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 5299526" data-attributes="member: 151">Can you give some examples of what 'more about heroism' means?&nbsp; What sort of interactions or options can you think of that would provide the opportunity for the heroes to be more heroic without combat?&nbsp; And why aren't these already molded in the rules?I'd argue that with each successive version, D&amp;D has moved more and more towards that model of providing non-combat resolution methods and ways to make such situations more exciting.&nbsp; It can be argued that stuff like Skill Challenges don't necessarily succeed at that goal (though I would disagree, personally).I guess the question becomes, what would make the players seem more heroic WITHOUT the use of violence?&nbsp; Many of the heroic actions I can think of are NOT conducive to lengthy play.&nbsp; &nbsp; Many other 'heroic' activities sound like single person activities...or stuff that certainly some party members will have no ability to help with.&nbsp; I'm sure you could make situations where non-violent 'heroic' tasks come up, but could you base a campaign around them?&nbsp; I'm not sure.In one of my recent games, the heroes were on-board a ship that was attacked.&nbsp; They managed to get themselves to safety, but we initialized a skill challenge to rescue the other passengers and some of the special cargo they needed to protect.&nbsp; In this case, each character had some skills that they could contribute to the challenge, using their specific talents.But if you want to base an entire game around primarily non-combat pursuits, you'll have to work hard at making sure characters are given equal things to do.&nbsp; The problem you'll probably run in to is that most D&amp;D characters are balanced and created around the axis of their functions IN combat.&nbsp; Removing that focus unfairly affects some classes more than others.&nbsp; Less so in 4e than previously, but you still have a situation where skill-heavy classes and high INT characters are more likely going to benefit over combat-specialists.&nbsp; A rogue can find use for stuff like sleight-of-hand or bluff in non-violent situations...the fighter is going to find &quot;Tide of Iron&quot; far less useful.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="WizarDru, post: 5299526, member: 151"] Can you give some examples of what 'more about heroism' means? What sort of interactions or options can you think of that would provide the opportunity for the heroes to be more heroic without combat? And why aren't these already molded in the rules? I'd argue that with each successive version, D&D has moved more and more towards that model of providing non-combat resolution methods and ways to make such situations more exciting. It can be argued that stuff like Skill Challenges don't necessarily succeed at that goal (though I would disagree, personally). I guess the question becomes, what would make the players seem more heroic WITHOUT the use of violence? Many of the heroic actions I can think of are NOT conducive to lengthy play. Many other 'heroic' activities sound like single person activities...or stuff that certainly some party members will have no ability to help with. I'm sure you could make situations where non-violent 'heroic' tasks come up, but could you base a campaign around them? I'm not sure. In one of my recent games, the heroes were on-board a ship that was attacked. They managed to get themselves to safety, but we initialized a skill challenge to rescue the other passengers and some of the special cargo they needed to protect. In this case, each character had some skills that they could contribute to the challenge, using their specific talents. But if you want to base an entire game around primarily non-combat pursuits, you'll have to work hard at making sure characters are given equal things to do. The problem you'll probably run in to is that most D&D characters are balanced and created around the axis of their functions IN combat. Removing that focus unfairly affects some classes more than others. Less so in 4e than previously, but you still have a situation where skill-heavy classes and high INT characters are more likely going to benefit over combat-specialists. A rogue can find use for stuff like sleight-of-hand or bluff in non-violent situations...the fighter is going to find "Tide of Iron" far less useful. [/QUOTE]

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