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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 1878398" data-attributes="member: 18280">When will the DM finally let us succeed?  Admittedly, we might not be seeing the whole scenario here.  However, assuming that the DM is doing a reasonably good job, the DM determines the circumstances and the opposition.  The players determine, within that framework, when they will succeed based upon their actions and choices.  Sure, the DM has a partial responsibility over pacing.  However, if, and only if, the circumstances and/or opposition are somehow unfair does the DM have anabsolute responsibility.  In this case, it is quite clear that the players had won.  They then turned around and foolishly gave away what they had won when they trusted the gnomish faction.  Sure, if they were really nice to the gnomes, perhaps some of them might feel sorry for what happened and try to make amends in another way.  But I, for one, would not have them absolutely betray the gnomish faction, either.  Maybe some form of consolation prize.  You know, a messenger arrives with a package and a note:  "For your service in the cause of blah, blah, blah, and as a token of our goodwill, we send you the gizmo of godzmo.  No hard feelings."The DM should be careful not to make every NPC a rat-bastard who'll betray the PCs at the first opportunity.  Early modules were rife with these type of characters.  Hence, early players learned to trust no one.  Unless the DM wants a very cynical group of untrusting PCs who view every NPC as potential fodder, the "bad egg" NPCs need to be balanced against a lot of openly honest and/or unexpectedly helpful NPCs.  Otherwise, all NPCs will soon seem to be "the enemy" -- even those that the PCs are supposedly saving or helping or protecting.But, as has been pointed out by others, the PCs had many opportunities to prevent this outcome.  Foremost:  Have one of the PCs crated with the McGuffin.Players (and PCs) make mistakes.  If they're wise, they'll learn from them.  DMs make mistakes, too.  This just doesn't seem to be one of them.  YMMV.RC</blockquote>

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