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Message: <blockquote data-quote="scourger" data-source="post: 1879219" data-attributes="member: 12328">Ambrus, there's too much junk here for me to wade through it now; but I think you should stick to your guns.  You've apparently got your players, including your fiancee, chiming in on this thread now about how high their Charisma is, how high their Diplomacy checks are, how mad they are, and blah, blah, blah.  Man, I get tired of hearing that stuff from players.  Why are they even making those rolls in the first place?  The DMG has a bunch of skills listed that the DM should make for the players, and I think Diplomacy is one of them just to avoid this kind of belly aching.  Sometimes, no matter how skilled a character is, they just fail a check.  Sometimes, the NPCs are just as skilled or *gasp* even more so!   Imagine the NPC expert who has a decent attribute score, maxes out a skill, maxe synergistic skills, takes Skill Focus, and even one of those other feats to get a +2.  If you made your livelihood as a Diplomat, wouldn't you have those skills & feats?  Isn't it reasonable to assume that the best diplomats in the game world are actually attracted to such professions in a vibrant campaign setting?  Why, the NPC may even be a paragon or *gasp again* EXCEPTIONAL at a particular skill.  If the players couldn't see this coming from a mile away, they deserve to be crated up and left in a warehouse.  Bottom line: sometimes players get fooled, and sometimes characters do too.  Get a helmet.That said, I've played in a game where the artifact quest became a millstone around the necks of all the players.  We aren't playing that game anymore.  Maybe you shouldn't be either.  But, it's not because you're a cruel DM (to get back on the original topic of this post).</blockquote>

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