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<blockquote data-quote="irdeggman" data-source="post: 1879551" data-attributes="member: 16285">And that I think is the crux of the matter.&nbsp; The PCs had no way of determinng they were being misled.Adding to that the DM said he didn't &quot;plan&quot; on things happening the way they did but it fit the motivation of the factions of gnomes.The PCs/player's did nothing wrong as far as I can tell. They did a Sense Motive to determine if the gnomes could be trusted (it appears their checks indicated they could).It appears to me that the DM suddenly saw an opprotunity and used it, but the PCs/players had no way of seeing it coming.&nbsp; This, IMO, is absolutely wrong.&nbsp; As was presented in the original post it appeared as if it was the PCs/players' choice to do things they did when in fact the situation (geas, sense motive check, urgency, every one after them, etc.) dictasted their actions - hence it was out of their control.Bottom line is that the players should be presented things to make choices which determine outcomes. In this case that was not done, unless there is another piece not presented.It doesn't really matter if the PCs' were adjusting the attitudes of the gnomes or not, what does matter is the sense motive/bluff check results.&nbsp; That is what they are for.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="irdeggman, post: 1879551, member: 16285"] And that I think is the crux of the matter. The PCs had no way of determinng they were being misled. Adding to that the DM said he didn't "plan" on things happening the way they did but it fit the motivation of the factions of gnomes. The PCs/player's did nothing wrong as far as I can tell. They did a Sense Motive to determine if the gnomes could be trusted (it appears their checks indicated they could). It appears to me that the DM suddenly saw an opprotunity and used it, but the PCs/players had no way of seeing it coming. This, IMO, is absolutely wrong. As was presented in the original post it appeared as if it was the PCs/players' choice to do things they did when in fact the situation (geas, sense motive check, urgency, every one after them, etc.) dictasted their actions - hence it was [B]out of their control[/B]. Bottom line is that the players should be presented things to make choices which determine outcomes. In this case that was not done, unless there is another piece not presented. It doesn't really matter if the PCs' were adjusting the attitudes of the gnomes or not, what does matter is the sense motive/bluff check results. That is what they are for. [/QUOTE]

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