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<blockquote data-quote="two" data-source="post: 3047457" data-attributes="member: 9002"><p>Combat can very quickly turn slow-n-ugly. Even something as simple as a night combat around a fire can be impossible using strict RAW rules. Who has concealment? How much? How far does darkvision extend? Low-light? What percent miss chance is it? Let's roll that too. How far does the torch light extend? Bull-eye lantern? Does the enemy have a miss chance? Can the fighter put on plate in a hurry? Yes? No? What feat? Endurance? *looks up feat* No, you can wear it... Even a rules-savvy GM can be overwhemled by a D&D combat with 6+ participants in a slightly (not hugely) complicated environment.</p><p></p><p>Turning never goes quickly. Keeping track of bonuses can often be quite a pain. Bard song, bless, GMW, rage... does bard song stack with bless? What is GMW at these days? How long does the rage last? Each question is trivial in iteslf; clumped together, they can be a pain.</p><p></p><p>Then there is the "let's avoid the AOO" movement stuff. Even just normal sensible party play (you go there, you go there, no I wanna go there, I'll flank, you do that) takes a long time to resolve. I've seen 10+ min-per-round combat sessions. Often.</p><p></p><p>Prep time is brutal for levels 6+. Create an NPC Wiz who doesn't suck (level 10, say), get the spells/theme picked, get DC's, get skills, get equipment, get level up bumps, get rough skill set, get hp's... then do rough tactics, special tactics, defensive spells, common buffs... then you have to make the apprentice(s). </p><p></p><p>Yes you can handwave a lot of it. But if you really want a legitamite (tough) well defended sensible good-feat choice wiz/sorcerer/cleric/etc NPC it takes a long time. 30 min? 1 hour? at levels 10+ it's often more than an hour. This isn't fun for many.</p><p></p><p>"Let's face it: most of D&D is the manipulation of only a few variables. If the net effect of an ability is to stun an opponent if it fails a Fort save, then that's pretty easy to deal with. Sure, the players need to know, but they don't have that much to deal with."</p><p></p><p>You baldly and blandly assert this. D&D 3.5 is the most complex game ever published (with regards to number of rules and page count). There are not a few variables. There are hundreds of variables. Even to do something like stun an opponent you need to know how the stun is delivered (hit? what is the bonus to hit? is it tough or melee) and the stun DC. Is it a spell? Does casting it provoke AOO in this case? Does the dwarf get a special racial bonus against the spell (yet another variable)? What is the effect if any for a made save. And if you do fail, what does "STUN" actually do in the game (look it up, likely). </p><p></p><p>If you really believe:</p><p></p><p>"most of D&D is the manipulation of only a few variables"</p><p></p><p>I would suggest, mildly, you page through any moster manual and count up the number of feats/abilities/defenses/etc. you come across... (these are all "variables" which must be "manipulated") then open any spell book and start tallying up the variables found in there... just look at WEB for example... are there anchoring points? What ARE anchoring points, anyway? What is the spread/radius? Range? What does entangling do, anyway? Is there SR? What is the save? Effect of making the save? How long does it last? Burning it does what? For how long? (this is 1/2 of the questions you might have for one spell...of thousands)...</p><p></p><p>++++++</p><p></p><p>In general, I find many of your posts knee-jerk in defense of all things WOTC. But this is baffling. It's OK if D&D is sometimes mind-bogglingly complex. It's a big, big game. Complex games take time to play -- combat is often much slower than anyone wants. </p><p></p><p>You might think people are complaining overmuch about slow combat... and your "defense" is to claim simplicity for D&D...</p><p></p><p>D&D is not simple nor straightforward; particularly at levels 6-8+. Above level 15, it can be an absolute nightmare, even with players/GM focussed on speed.</p><p></p><p>If you have managed to tame this complexity and it works well for you and your group: fine. </p><p></p><p>You might even want to give us some tips at speeding up combat.</p><p></p><p>But don't try to tell us D&D isn't a huge, complex game!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="two, post: 3047457, member: 9002"] Combat can very quickly turn slow-n-ugly. Even something as simple as a night combat around a fire can be impossible using strict RAW rules. Who has concealment? How much? How far does darkvision extend? Low-light? What percent miss chance is it? Let's roll that too. How far does the torch light extend? Bull-eye lantern? Does the enemy have a miss chance? Can the fighter put on plate in a hurry? Yes? No? What feat? Endurance? *looks up feat* No, you can wear it... Even a rules-savvy GM can be overwhemled by a D&D combat with 6+ participants in a slightly (not hugely) complicated environment. Turning never goes quickly. Keeping track of bonuses can often be quite a pain. Bard song, bless, GMW, rage... does bard song stack with bless? What is GMW at these days? How long does the rage last? Each question is trivial in iteslf; clumped together, they can be a pain. Then there is the "let's avoid the AOO" movement stuff. Even just normal sensible party play (you go there, you go there, no I wanna go there, I'll flank, you do that) takes a long time to resolve. I've seen 10+ min-per-round combat sessions. Often. Prep time is brutal for levels 6+. Create an NPC Wiz who doesn't suck (level 10, say), get the spells/theme picked, get DC's, get skills, get equipment, get level up bumps, get rough skill set, get hp's... then do rough tactics, special tactics, defensive spells, common buffs... then you have to make the apprentice(s). Yes you can handwave a lot of it. But if you really want a legitamite (tough) well defended sensible good-feat choice wiz/sorcerer/cleric/etc NPC it takes a long time. 30 min? 1 hour? at levels 10+ it's often more than an hour. This isn't fun for many. "Let's face it: most of D&D is the manipulation of only a few variables. If the net effect of an ability is to stun an opponent if it fails a Fort save, then that's pretty easy to deal with. Sure, the players need to know, but they don't have that much to deal with." You baldly and blandly assert this. D&D 3.5 is the most complex game ever published (with regards to number of rules and page count). There are not a few variables. There are hundreds of variables. Even to do something like stun an opponent you need to know how the stun is delivered (hit? what is the bonus to hit? is it tough or melee) and the stun DC. Is it a spell? Does casting it provoke AOO in this case? Does the dwarf get a special racial bonus against the spell (yet another variable)? What is the effect if any for a made save. And if you do fail, what does "STUN" actually do in the game (look it up, likely). If you really believe: "most of D&D is the manipulation of only a few variables" I would suggest, mildly, you page through any moster manual and count up the number of feats/abilities/defenses/etc. you come across... (these are all "variables" which must be "manipulated") then open any spell book and start tallying up the variables found in there... just look at WEB for example... are there anchoring points? What ARE anchoring points, anyway? What is the spread/radius? Range? What does entangling do, anyway? Is there SR? What is the save? Effect of making the save? How long does it last? Burning it does what? For how long? (this is 1/2 of the questions you might have for one spell...of thousands)... ++++++ In general, I find many of your posts knee-jerk in defense of all things WOTC. But this is baffling. It's OK if D&D is sometimes mind-bogglingly complex. It's a big, big game. Complex games take time to play -- combat is often much slower than anyone wants. You might think people are complaining overmuch about slow combat... and your "defense" is to claim simplicity for D&D... D&D is not simple nor straightforward; particularly at levels 6-8+. Above level 15, it can be an absolute nightmare, even with players/GM focussed on speed. If you have managed to tame this complexity and it works well for you and your group: fine. You might even want to give us some tips at speeding up combat. But don't try to tell us D&D isn't a huge, complex game! [/QUOTE]
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