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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 9622165" data-attributes="member: 6677017">I occasionally see it mentioned that rogues are weak, but that hasn't been my experience. I'm wanting to find out where the difference in perspective comes from.Is it based on fighters optimizing feats like Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master? In that case, it does move them onto a whole different level than a featless, single-class, fighter, and rogues have no feats that can do the same thing. I know some people consider that fighters need those feats to be a decent class, so I could understand the argument from that perspective.Is it based on even a featless rogue not having an expected DPR on par with the warrior (all martial weapons plus d10 HD) classes? Rogues occupy a space between the warriors and the other class/subclasses that just have a little something to help them in melee but aren't that good at it. The rogues are much closer to the warriors though in the damage dealing department. Since they also have neat tricks, cool defenses, and the best skill mastery of any character by far, that feels like about the right place to me. If you are coming from a perspective where all non-casters should have approximately equal DPR and approximately equal other stuff (rather than sacrificing some DPR being acceptable to excel in other areas) I can understand it from that perspective.Here's the math for a single-class, featless, DPR potential comparison for TWF rogues (and assuming you are basically getting sneak attack every round as intended), along with sword and board Dueling style fighters and Great Weapon style greatsword fighters at various levels (and assuming 21 rounds of combat, 2 short rests, and Action Surge usage for attacking).Rogue 5 = 21.5Rogue 11 = 33Rogue 17 = 43.5Rogue 20 = 47Dueling Fighter 5 = 24Dueling Fighter 11 = 39.4Dueling Fighter 17 =44.4Dueling Fighter 20 = 59.1Great Weapon Fighter 5 = 28.2Great Weapon Fighter 11 = 45.7Great Weapon Fighter 17 = 51.4Great Weapon Fighter 21 = 68.6Considering that fighters are the best class at this melee weapon DPR, those numbers seem like a pretty good fit to me. The sword and board fighter isn't much higher than the rogue in general, and the greatsword wielder is appropriately better. A 20th level fighter's DPR takes a huge jump, but that's because that 4th attack per round is their capstone. The rogue gets to reroll a miss 1/rest as part of their capstone and I couldn't immediately think of a way to calculate that in.Am I missing other considerations, or is just those two I was wondering about that give me different assumptions?</blockquote>

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