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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GreyICE" data-source="post: 6004917" data-attributes="member: 6684526">I don't know about that.  I mean Warhammer 40k has some very distinct fluff that tells how battles SHOULD play out (the "outcome") but the rules create a playingfield where the rules stand paramount.  For instance, from fluff a squad of five space marines is worth maybe 200-500 orks, in combat.  Yet on the table an army consisting of 20 space marines can often be cornered and overwhelmed by 80 orks or so.  Other games that focus on a strict antagonistic relationship should also focus on primacy of rules over outcome.  For instance the DnD encounters they're currently running are rules-driven and deservedly so, and I would flat up say anyone who runs the "dungeon crawl" DnD module that is set as a reality TV show in the 25th century as anything other than rules driven (BLATANTLY to the exclusion of common sense, as this is reality TV) should hand in their GMing license.  Similarly for Living Pathfinder, etc. - the rules should be paramount because the outcome has elements of competition.  It's just I don't see it as a particularly compelling way to play what is, at the end of the day, a cooperative exercise in story building.  Maybe it's me taking a break from DnD to play FATE for a long time (I'm currently in 1 DnD campaign at the moment) but the endless rules debates are leaving me colder and colder.  Maybe that's what makes me enjoy 4E the most of any DnD system - it sticks the rules in a nice, easy to manage box, hands you the box, and then says "we have NO IDEA what happens outside this box.  Seriously, we don't.  Here's a collection of tools to build what's inside the box, here's some suggestions for how to structure things that happen outside the box, here's some good ideas, but seriously, outside this box?  We know NOTHING.  Have fun!" If you've got to do rules-heavy cooperative story building, that strikes me as the way to go.  But for a strict Dungeon Crawl simulator I do see the advantages of the other approach - it feels less like the DM is "cheating" in creating his crawl, and the crawl is presented as an obstacle the DM will throw at you as hard as possible to attempt to break you.</blockquote>

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