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<blockquote data-quote="ferratus" data-source="post: 4066529" data-attributes="member: 55966">Team based combat, fantastic creatures, magic... Hmm... I can't think of any other elements from the D&amp;D boxed set till now which have remained unchanged. The classes, the way classes operated were different, races came and went, the means of resolving an attack changed, ability scores affected different things, unarmed combat was different, light and visibility, movement, specific spells like lightning bolt and fireball, equipment rules... all different.&nbsp; So when you bring up that the following is different...You know another time skill points were gone?&nbsp; 2nd Edition.&nbsp; There were no skills at all but Non-weapon proficiencies.&nbsp; In 3e the problem with skill points is that if you didn't max out your skills you were usually useless at that skill, especially if the skill in question had an opposing skill check ie. hide vs. spot.&nbsp;&nbsp; So 4e just assumes that you train in a skill or you are a gifted amateur.&nbsp; This means that more people can participate in teamwork involving skills (which keeps people from wandering away to the fridge, talking to other people left out, or reading), and since you were maxing out your skills anyway just giving you proficiency in that skill is an easy shortcut.You mean you didn't combine hide and move silently into &quot;Stealth&quot; and spot and listen into &quot;Perception&quot; 6 years ago?&nbsp; I thought pretty much every D&amp;D table had house ruled that.Again, you didn't houserule the &quot;Living Greyhawk&quot; half hit dice +1 rule into your game 6 years ago?&nbsp; I saw some emotional attachment to the old style rolling, but most tables I gamed in had 3 hit points for wizards, 4 for rogues, 5 for clerics, 6 for fighters and 7 for barbarians.&nbsp; This really is nothing new.It was tiered before too.&nbsp; Every few levels you got an extra +1d6.&nbsp; Like I said in another post, I'm pretty sure that you can add more to your sneak attack with powers and feats, though I have nothing to back that up. Again, not really new since spells have been using all sorts of ways of attacking a character.&nbsp; We had to have three seperate defenses in order to deal with different types of magical attacks, plus spells attacked AC as well.&nbsp;&nbsp; The only thing that is different is that martial character classes through various means are attacking saving throws as well.&nbsp; Precise strike is just a fancy way of &quot;called shot to a gap in the armour&quot; and thus uses reflex saves.&nbsp;&nbsp; Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a &quot;blinding attack&quot; using powder or sand that required a fortitude save, or if non-lethal damage required a will save to stay conscious.&nbsp; Now these are just examples I'm making up, but certainly they aren't any more ludicrous than magical attacks against these defenses.So really I don't get how it changes it from being &quot;D&amp;D&quot; since all of your examples haven't been around in previous editions of D&amp;D.&nbsp; Also, a lot of changes have been optional rules for awhile, and those that weren't are just logical extensions of existing rules.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ferratus, post: 4066529, member: 55966"] Team based combat, fantastic creatures, magic... Hmm... I can't think of any other elements from the D&D boxed set till now which have remained unchanged. The classes, the way classes operated were different, races came and went, the means of resolving an attack changed, ability scores affected different things, unarmed combat was different, light and visibility, movement, specific spells like lightning bolt and fireball, equipment rules... all different. So when you bring up that the following is different... You know another time skill points were gone? 2nd Edition. There were no skills at all but Non-weapon proficiencies. In 3e the problem with skill points is that if you didn't max out your skills you were usually useless at that skill, especially if the skill in question had an opposing skill check ie. hide vs. spot. So 4e just assumes that you train in a skill or you are a gifted amateur. This means that more people can participate in teamwork involving skills (which keeps people from wandering away to the fridge, talking to other people left out, or reading), and since you were maxing out your skills anyway just giving you proficiency in that skill is an easy shortcut. You mean you didn't combine hide and move silently into "Stealth" and spot and listen into "Perception" 6 years ago? I thought pretty much every D&D table had house ruled that. Again, you didn't houserule the "Living Greyhawk" half hit dice +1 rule into your game 6 years ago? I saw some emotional attachment to the old style rolling, but most tables I gamed in had 3 hit points for wizards, 4 for rogues, 5 for clerics, 6 for fighters and 7 for barbarians. This really is nothing new. It was tiered before too. Every few levels you got an extra +1d6. Like I said in another post, I'm pretty sure that you can add more to your sneak attack with powers and feats, though I have nothing to back that up. Again, not really new since spells have been using all sorts of ways of attacking a character. We had to have three seperate defenses in order to deal with different types of magical attacks, plus spells attacked AC as well. The only thing that is different is that martial character classes through various means are attacking saving throws as well. Precise strike is just a fancy way of "called shot to a gap in the armour" and thus uses reflex saves. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a "blinding attack" using powder or sand that required a fortitude save, or if non-lethal damage required a will save to stay conscious. Now these are just examples I'm making up, but certainly they aren't any more ludicrous than magical attacks against these defenses. So really I don't get how it changes it from being "D&D" since all of your examples haven't been around in previous editions of D&D. Also, a lot of changes have been optional rules for awhile, and those that weren't are just logical extensions of existing rules. [/QUOTE]

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