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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5192403" data-attributes="member: 4937">Heh.  Thanks, I fix that.No problem.Yes.  He is by that time a 17th level character.   He basically can act as if he was wearing color changing Predator body armor, and disappear while in the middle of a group like a movie or comic book character.Yes.  The other mundane/martial classes - explorer, fanatic (think barbarian), fighter, and rogue - are equivalently powerful.   And while you'd need to tone down things a little if you took away easy access to magical healing, the 'Celebrim' martial classes are diverse enough and powerful enough that you could run a very low level magic game if you really wanted to.  Though, as you point out, at high levels even 'mundane' classes would be basically comic book superheroes capable of doing superhuman things.  I'd estimate the Hunter is getting about 24-29 feats worth of powers.  The 'Celebrim' fighter gets 16 bonus feats over 20 levels, plus the equivalent of about 9 feats worth of class abilities.   The hunter gets 7 skill points to the fighters 4, but loses 1 hp per level and heavy armor proficiency.  The hunter on the other hand has a good reflex save.  The figher also has some exclusive or more or less exclusive access to feats  either because of restrictions to fighters (weapon specialization) or the fact that no other class can effectively meet the steep prerequisites in terms of BAB and number of feats.  So for example, if you want Avalanche Attack and Secret Technique (allowing you to essentially critical hit everything in your movement path), you pretty much have to play a fighter.  Also fighters get both tactics and leadership as class skills, the only class that can do both easily.  While fighter is still not a hugely popular class among players in my game, 'Celebrim' fighter is bloody effective (IME/IMO) and a fairly low level fighter with feats like all-out attack, improved flail, teamwork, and heedless charge can still be annoying to even fairly high level foes.  There is nothing quite like having +15 or so to hit to keeping yourself relevant.  No other class can do that sort of thing easily.(Realistic examples for 4th level NPC fighters: +4 BAB, teamwork + surrounded foe = +8, 14 str = +2, offensive fighting stance = +2, masterwork weapon = +1, one of your friends with a tactics roll to give you +2 = +19 to hit, or +4 BAB, +4 heedless charge, +2 str bonus, +1 masterwork weapon = +11 to hit without the need for 3 or more friends.)As you say, you have to go quite far to balance out with what a core wizard could do even in 3.0.  However, for the most part, if you saw my full spellcasters, you'd realize that they were going the opposite direction.  Druid is replaced by the less broketastic 'Shaman'.  Clerics lose 1 spell per day from each spell level above 0th (thier progression starts at 0+1).   Wizards and sorcerers have to deal with the fact that they can't 'cast defensively' to effectually elimenate AoO's and that they don't add spell level to the DC of saving throws (meaning high level targets usually pass saving throws).   This is one of the reasons why I wryly smirk when I get reflexive and unreflected accusations that I think 'only spellcasters should get good stuff'.  All criticism is welcome.</blockquote>

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