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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zustiur" data-source="post: 5986664" data-attributes="member: 1544">I have seen complaints on these forums about both 3e's saves and 4e's defences. I think both camps have some good points in this regard. The only other solution I've seen proposed was 'players roll everything', which I personally am not a fan of. While pondering these three mechanics and the 'flatter math' goal of 5E, I had an idea. Before I elaborate on my idea, here are some of the complaints I've seen previously. These can be used as a reference point:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> 3E saving throws mean that the attacker doesn't play an active part in determining the success of the effect.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> 3E also couples this with long durations where you know from the start how long the duration will be because it is determined when the spell is cast (and this must be tracked)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> 3E's 'save or suck' spells can result in you having literally nothing to do on your turn.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Defences mean that the defender (particularly referring to PCs) doesn't play an active part in determining the effect.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> 4E's saving throws (1-9 fail, 10-20 succeed) often result in 1 round duration, or less, so why not just make all spells 'until the end of your next turn'?</li> </ul>I believe my mechanic addresses each of these concerns without being as one-sided as 'players roll everything'.The MechanicAttack vs Defence to set the initial DCSubsequent saves are measured against that DCA natural 20 always succeeds in both of these cases.WhereAttack = d20 + stat modifier + spell levelDefence = 10 + stat modifier + optional modifiers such as feats, race, items etc (to be determined later)Save = d20 + stat modifier + optional modifiers such as feats, race, items etc (to be determined later)Individual spells may have other conditional rules. You might for example, have a +2 to the attack roll for a certain spell which has a minor impact, thus giving it a greater likely duration.An example of how this mechanic might play out:A cleric casts hold person on an orc. He rolls the attack roll and gets a natural 13 on his dice. He adds his Wisdom bonus (4) and the spell level (2) for a total of 19. This beats the orc's [relevant-stat] defence of 13, so the orc is held. At the end of orc's turn, it rolls a saving throw and gets a natural 14 on the dice. The DM adds this to the orc's [relevant-stat] modifier and gets a total of 17. This isn't enough to break free. On the subsequent round the DM rolls a total of 8 and still hasn't broken free. On a 3rd round the DM rolls a total of 20 and the orc is no longer held.In a subsequent battle, the cleric uses the same spell on another orc. This time the attack roll total is only 13. The orc rolls a natural 10 on it's first saving throw attempt and breaks free after only one round.The higher the initial attack roll, the longer an effect is likely to last, yet the effect can still be ended within 1 turn if the target gets lucky on its saving throws.Additional ClausesSustain. I feel that particularly powerful spell effects should require sustaining. For example, Hold Person might be 'save ends' and 'sustain minor', with either condition getting you out. i.e. save ends, or until the spell is not sustained, whichever happens first. This factor should help to alleviate 'save or suck' by tying up the caster as well as the target. Note that some spells should take more than a minor action to sustain, particularly those which deal ongoing damage, or which knock one or more targets unconscious. e.g. sleep.Buffs and debuffs. Assuming the 'advantage/disadvantage' mechanic survives, I see no reason not to have that as the effect from buffs and debuffs. Allies might provide advantage on saving throws that the recipient makes. Enemies might in turn provide disadvantage on the target's saving throws.Modifiers (Feats/Items/etc). I'd want to keep these bonuses to a minimum so that the attack rolls don't become impossible. One idea is to have these only affect saving throws, without affecting defences. Thus making durations shorter without making spells useless.Pros and ConsPros:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> This provides what I feel is a more satisfying 'save ends' mechanic because, 'save ends' will frequently last longer than one round</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Getting a really good attack roll to set the condition plays a part in determining the duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> It prevents/avoids the need to track a number of rounds</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> It means that neither side can be really sure when the effect will end</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> It highlights the difference in strength between the attacker and the defender.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> If the 'sustain' part is included, then 'save or suck' is partially balanced by reducing the caster's capabilities (and incidentally this makes it harder to 'go nova')</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> It means that having a poor defence stat doesn't just mean you get affected more often, it means those effects are more powerful too. Likewise, having a good defence means both that you'll be affected less frequently, and that you'll break out of the effect sooner.</li> </ul>Cons<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> It is more complex to teach/learn</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> You must write down the DC when the effect starts</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> It requires more dice rolling</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> If combined with the 'sustain' part, it requires tracking on both sides (the caster and the target) because one must remember to sustain, and the other must remember the save DC.</li> </ul>If you spot other pros or cons (or indeed complaints about existing systems), please list them for me and I'll try to keep this post up to date.I believe my mechanic addresses the existing concerns, and has pros which outweigh the cons. It is neither one edition's system nor the other, instead being a new entity taking inspiration from both prior mechanics. It is also somewhat more dynamic than either of the previous systems, which will hopefully lead to more interesting play experiences. With all that said; what your opinions on the mechanic?</blockquote>

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