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<blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 5987546" data-attributes="member: 710">I dislike the End of Next Turn/Start of Next Turn distinction as well. But I am not sure i'd default to Start of Next Turn, since that means some of the striker type &quot;self-buffs&quot; would no longer work. maybe it's not that terrible if the Warlord and Clerics can also help their own attacks?One of the effects I found most interesting in D&amp;D 4 was those that didn'T even require a hit. Like &quot;Offering of Justice&quot; or what it was called, an Invoker power that deals damage if the enemy makes an attack and heals him when he doesn't. No attack roll, just a choice. I wouldn't mind if magic would actually not always allow a save against the initial effect. That could be one of the perks of powerful magic. To kill someone with a sword, you have to hit him, but magic is different - you suffer the effect and can only hope to break free. As long as the &quot;Hope&quot; is actually reasonable, and the effects are rare enough, it could work. It doesn't work for everything, but for some effects it's interesting. To some extent, this type of effects existed even before 4E - illusions typically require no save, until you interact with them and have a reason to doubt.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mustrum_Ridcully, post: 5987546, member: 710"] I dislike the End of Next Turn/Start of Next Turn distinction as well. But I am not sure i'd default to Start of Next Turn, since that means some of the striker type "self-buffs" would no longer work. maybe it's not that terrible if the Warlord and Clerics can also help their own attacks? One of the effects I found most interesting in D&D 4 was those that didn'T even require a hit. Like "Offering of Justice" or what it was called, an Invoker power that deals damage if the enemy makes an attack and heals him when he doesn't. No attack roll, just a choice. I wouldn't mind if magic would actually not always allow a save against the initial effect. That could be one of the perks of powerful magic. To kill someone with a sword, you have to hit him, but magic is different - you suffer the effect and can only hope to break free. As long as the "Hope" is actually reasonable, and the effects are rare enough, it could work. It doesn't work for everything, but for some effects it's interesting. To some extent, this type of effects existed even before 4E - illusions typically require no save, until you interact with them and have a reason to doubt. [/QUOTE]

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