Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
An Argument for Why Paladins are the Strongest Class in 5E D&D
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7945733" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>Requoted because you also referenced a 10th level+ non-melee character in a thread about paladins being the strongest class as opposed to front line being a requirement.</p><p></p><p>You also point to hunter's mark for the valor bard and still avoid acknowledging it for the vengeance paladin.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Requoted to keep us on track.</p><p></p><p>That's because damage isn't optimal. Controlling incoming damage is because DPR drops to 0 when attackers stop attacking. Bringing this into your campaign and build, I would point out your P2/B6 would likely have +2 CON save from CON because the classes don't offer the proficiency, the build lacks the ASI's to have added it, and the build gave up the CHA bonus paladins gain at 6th level. That makes the paladin more susceptible to the glabrezu power word stun when you bring up that particular monster.</p><p></p><p>You acknowledged spells being more prominent than blowing them on damage at that point and seem to have turned around to blow spells on damage via smite.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Here you claimed to pretty much use slots for smites.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Here is where I think you went off course. The bard MC has higher slots to briefly add more smite damage but that never acknowledged contributors to damage other than smite. The bard doesn't have more attacks, as I pointed out. There are multiple ways for the paladin to add a bonus action attack as well.</p><p></p><p>What you are telling me here is the bard is trying to be a paladin by smiting and comparing it to a paladin who's using his spells to replace a cleric, then going "see bards do more damage".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not theory crafting. The issue as I see it is that you are using an anecdotal comparison in a campaign that doesn't favor spell casting with a paladin prepping spells in absence of a cleric instead of optimizing more for damage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That wasn't the actual claim. It was a tool mentioned. That should have been cleared up in subsequent posts. You are still clinging to fireball and ignoring other options mentioned, although magic resistance in your demon example impacts the spells I mentioned.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is why I reposted some quotes. The thread is about paladins being a strong class. That doesn't necessitate any particular role or playstyle. When you posted your own example of a ranged valor bard and then declined to accept a ranged lore bard it looked like you were running a double standard or backtracking.</p><p></p><p>Range is usually a drawback for paladins. Bringing ranged characters into consideration is certainly not off limits in a discussion about relative power. There's nothing in the topic of "paladins are the most powerful" that requires ignoring range. Just because the bard is using paladin smites as a damage source doesn't mean range became irrelevant to the discussion.</p><p></p><p>Faerie fire is a good spell too, btw, and one you would not be using based on your comment about using slots for smites. It's also less effective against the magic resistance you brought up.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do you only ever fight CR 9 monsters? Bone devils, clay golems, and glabrezu have magic resistance. Cloud giants, fire giants, treants, young blue dragons, and young silver dragons do not. By my count (it's a quick check from the SRD) magic resistance is less common than no magic resistance in CR 9 monsters.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which gets to an issue. You claimed to be mostly using slots for smites and then mostly fighting demons (glabrezu apparently) when all of them can fly. You also mentioned facing a lot of them as the campaign is closing by 9th level. How are you using those slots both for dispel magic against a lot of glabrezu and also using those same slots to fight the glabrezu after you dispel magic?</p><p></p><p>Right now it looks like your P2/B6 is relying on the other paladin in the party for save benefits and the wizard for support. </p><p></p><p>As for magic resistance in general, the wizard should be swapping in spells that don't have saving throws. Usually that means switching to attack rolls instead or using party buffs. Buffs are susceptible to dispel magic with the glabrezu but attack roll spells are not impacted by magic resistance. Based on your description of the campaign the wizard probably would have been better off with a warlock build.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7945733, member: 6750235"] Requoted because you also referenced a 10th level+ non-melee character in a thread about paladins being the strongest class as opposed to front line being a requirement. You also point to hunter's mark for the valor bard and still avoid acknowledging it for the vengeance paladin. Requoted to keep us on track. That's because damage isn't optimal. Controlling incoming damage is because DPR drops to 0 when attackers stop attacking. Bringing this into your campaign and build, I would point out your P2/B6 would likely have +2 CON save from CON because the classes don't offer the proficiency, the build lacks the ASI's to have added it, and the build gave up the CHA bonus paladins gain at 6th level. That makes the paladin more susceptible to the glabrezu power word stun when you bring up that particular monster. You acknowledged spells being more prominent than blowing them on damage at that point and seem to have turned around to blow spells on damage via smite. Here you claimed to pretty much use slots for smites. Here is where I think you went off course. The bard MC has higher slots to briefly add more smite damage but that never acknowledged contributors to damage other than smite. The bard doesn't have more attacks, as I pointed out. There are multiple ways for the paladin to add a bonus action attack as well. What you are telling me here is the bard is trying to be a paladin by smiting and comparing it to a paladin who's using his spells to replace a cleric, then going "see bards do more damage". I'm not theory crafting. The issue as I see it is that you are using an anecdotal comparison in a campaign that doesn't favor spell casting with a paladin prepping spells in absence of a cleric instead of optimizing more for damage. That wasn't the actual claim. It was a tool mentioned. That should have been cleared up in subsequent posts. You are still clinging to fireball and ignoring other options mentioned, although magic resistance in your demon example impacts the spells I mentioned. This is why I reposted some quotes. The thread is about paladins being a strong class. That doesn't necessitate any particular role or playstyle. When you posted your own example of a ranged valor bard and then declined to accept a ranged lore bard it looked like you were running a double standard or backtracking. Range is usually a drawback for paladins. Bringing ranged characters into consideration is certainly not off limits in a discussion about relative power. There's nothing in the topic of "paladins are the most powerful" that requires ignoring range. Just because the bard is using paladin smites as a damage source doesn't mean range became irrelevant to the discussion. Faerie fire is a good spell too, btw, and one you would not be using based on your comment about using slots for smites. It's also less effective against the magic resistance you brought up. Do you only ever fight CR 9 monsters? Bone devils, clay golems, and glabrezu have magic resistance. Cloud giants, fire giants, treants, young blue dragons, and young silver dragons do not. By my count (it's a quick check from the SRD) magic resistance is less common than no magic resistance in CR 9 monsters. Which gets to an issue. You claimed to be mostly using slots for smites and then mostly fighting demons (glabrezu apparently) when all of them can fly. You also mentioned facing a lot of them as the campaign is closing by 9th level. How are you using those slots both for dispel magic against a lot of glabrezu and also using those same slots to fight the glabrezu after you dispel magic? Right now it looks like your P2/B6 is relying on the other paladin in the party for save benefits and the wizard for support. As for magic resistance in general, the wizard should be swapping in spells that don't have saving throws. Usually that means switching to attack rolls instead or using party buffs. Buffs are susceptible to dispel magic with the glabrezu but attack roll spells are not impacted by magic resistance. Based on your description of the campaign the wizard probably would have been better off with a warlock build. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
An Argument for Why Paladins are the Strongest Class in 5E D&D
Top